How Many Gift Decisions Did Sven Ottke Actually Get ?

Best post so far. End thread.

 

Then should be Ward even more ashamed, as he did much less less out of his talent; he had just 2/7 of the number of title-defences and pretty long lay-offs (like two years), but he was a real hometown boxer; Ottke on the other hand never fought in his one (or only once), boxed every year four times and didn't headbutt an opponent like Kessler received it.

I think Wardkins is overrated, as he had no special abiltities as Jones, Mosley or Tyson. His fight against Abraham was pretty close and also vs. Bika. He couldn't even stop over the hill Miranda.

 

I actually appreciated you as user, therefore I am surprised you received a like by Mister McDemencia...
I though till few days ago, you are one of the best members here, besides Londsdale and Rob.

 

I think Ward had alot of injuries that started to catch up to him.
With all do respect there is no way Ottke is mire talented then Ward.
Froch. Bika. Abraham. Kessler. Rodriguez.
That is a pretty impressive list.

 

Listen, I don't hate Ottke, I think that he was a pretty skilled boxer, actually. However, it's clear to the world that he did sometimes have outrageously biased refereeing, the Reid fight being the worst.

 

Good thread but I actually thought he beat Johnson and it wasn't a robbery which prior to seeing it that's what I was expecting.
I don't think he is a great fighter. I think Joe would have won had they met.
But I think he is very underrated in the sense he's going to give people a difficult time and he made his style work for him.

 

I think it was mainly tactical (like Lasker & Lennox) and he ended up with very weak opposition in this division.
I never denied that Ward could be more gifted, but Ottke made more out of his abilites; he achieved the best what was possible for him (the orginal goal was to become European champion in Light-Heavyweight), as he was 30 when he started. So if he was an overachiever, then might be Ward an underachiever.

But common, Rodriguez, really...? That guy was not even top 10 in any weight-class, his fight against Maderna can be scored the other way easily (was for my a draw) and he arguable accomplished more in Light-Heavyweight.

At the time of the Super 6 was the divison not very strong (although maybe better than Cruiserweight in the one what Usyk won), as the stars had mainly left it or retired, just the very faded Kessler was left, who was no pound for pound top 10 boxer ever. Abraham was undersized and not so strong as in Middleweight.
Bika was a good gate-keeper, but failed against any elite boxer (Beyer, Calzaghe, Bute, Mendy, Dirrell). The best available opponent was Lucian Bute, but Ward never fought him (he was not invited to the tournament). Balzsay was also decent and he also missed to fight Dirrell.
So Wards resume is very thin and this tournament victory just overview about it.
I think Ottke would have won more convincingly against this Abraham and Daniel Boone (who knocked Andre Ward down).

 

I never denied that the performance of the referee was poor/ horrible, but rather because he was not consequent.
I don't see how this could have Ottke helped, apart of that Reid had maybe lost his line (if he had one, aside of destructing the cocentration of his opponent with fouls/ dirtyness) and got fixed to complain about the referee.

On the other hand not every referee is so generous as these which had Fury, to allow roughhouse-fighting. Some are looking for the rules.
I would have made the first point-deduction in round 3 and if needed a second in round 5.

And I claim most of the fights were by many users here not even watched; like the second Brewer fight; everybody who complains about it has probably not seen it (or can't score), just as the Larsen one.

 

Ottke vs the Super six would make an interesting thread. My take is as follows if we are considering the very best version of Ottke from around the late 90's. Ottke retired in 2004 and would have been in his 40's if he competed in the actual tournament so if we take the Ottke of say 99' for this.

Abraham vs Ottke. Too me this is a no brainer. Ottke was simply to fast for the very slow footed Abraham. Abraham didn't throw a lot of punches and really was always looking to land one big shot. He was much better at 160 and typically did better against slower guys that stood in front of him which ottke wouldn't. Easy ud for Ottke.

Ottke vs Dirrell would be a technical fight but one that I would favor Ottke in. Prime Dirrell had speed and was a good combination puncher but I like Ottke's outside game better and I would favor him via UD.

Ottke vs Jermane Taylor is another win for Ottke. Taylor at that point was a shell of himself who damn near lost his Middleweight title to Cory Spinks a couple of years earlier. Spinks was consistently better on the outside with his speed and boxing abilities. Prime Ottke was a bigger right handed version that was better defensively. UD for Ottke.

Froch vs Ottke is interesting. I hated Froch's style but he fought with a lot of aggresson and volume and I believe would have been a rough fight for a prime Ottke. A lot would depend on if Froch was allowed to use his rough house wrestling on the inside where his physical strength would be an advantage. I would put my money on Ottke though who had a significant speed advantage.

Kessler vs Ottke is another tough matchup for Ottke. Kessler before he fought Ward was an excellent fighter that was great on the outside. Ottke would have to be at his absolute best to beat Kessler who I think could and would beat Ottke in a close battle. I simply like Kessler more in a battle where both would look to establish the jab with Ottke trying to use his superior speed and against Kessler's excellent timing. UD for Kessler

Ward vs Ottke I am taking Ward who I think was the more versatile fighter. A lot would depend on the referee but Ward could really do it all and was excellent on the inside which Ottke was not. If Ward could establish his inside game he would wear Ottke out to the body where I could see Ottke as being vulnerable with his high guard. On the outside I see Ward as having the speed and amateur pedigree to win the fight. I think this would be an ugly match but I would put my money on Ward via UD.

As for the super six replacement fighters, we already saw Ottke vs Johnson and I don't feel the need to discuss Ottke versus Allan Green who really wasn't in the same league at all.

 

I didn't mean Ottke should habe competed at that time in it, 5 years after his retirement. But Bute (to determimate if he or Ward was the best) and somebody else like Inkin, Balzsay or Stieglitz. I meant to win the Super 6 World Classics was not so a big achievement as it alleged to be.
Against Ottke would it be depending where it took place, as Ward barely came out of Oakland, only to the next village sometimes. So I would guess this fight wouldn't happen.

But Ward was not so fast as Ottke, therefore got he outboxed by Abraham in the first 3 rounds and the last few were close too. Dirrell was quicker than him, but a chicken.
Ottke was very clever to prevent inside fights; he could jump on Ward (like Hopkins tried to Dawson).

Kessler was against Ward clearly past his best, after one year inactivity (thanks Palle) was his timming already off against Perdomo and he was also vs. Sartison not impressive. He could only brawl after Calzaghe. So that Kessler of 2009 would most likely lose against Ottke (from maybe 2002).
Froch avoided already Beyer in 2006, so I wouldn't expect him to come to Germany. He lost clearly against the faded Kessler and was against Taylor far behind, just as got a gift vs. Dirrell and the fight vs. Johnson was at best a draw; I would rather give it to Glencoffey than vice versa.

I think Ottke has many better wins than Rodriguez, who was maybe comparable with Starie.

 

I totally appreciate this post and get where you coming from. While I like how smart Ottke was and appreciate how good he was from a technical standpoint, he is judged harshly and rightfully so for not facing Calzaghe and for his his performance against Reid. As good as he looked at times he also had a habit of taking rounds off and simply could stink up a fight like a lot of strickly defensive minded outside fighters could. As good as he was he could have been so much better had he taken some chances and fought overseas. Then again, I get why he stayed home where he would make way more money being somewhat of a national hero. Too me he was a very good fighter that fell short of being great because of his natural inclination to being risk adverse.

With that said, I still like to watch him from time to time. He simply did a lot of things that I appreciate as for controlling distance and counter punching at the right times.

 

Great post. Very interesting. Here would be my take on Ottke vs super 6:

Abraham vs Ottke - interesting fight. Clear edge in speed for Ottke. But Arthur could hit and erase that advantage with one punch.
Problem is Arthur's punch count- he didn't like to punch alot. I think Ottke could get a close decision.

Ottke vs Dirrell. Horrible match up for Ottke. Andre was lighting quick and alot quicker then Ottke.
Think Ottke vs Mundine but Andre plays it safe.
Ottke would lose a wide decision.
Froch vs Ottke - Froch too strong and big and he would rough Ottke up on the inside.
I think Froch would wear him down and stop Ottke.
Ward vs Ottke - Ward is,too versatile and would win a decision.
Kessler vs Ottke - Kessler's jab would keep Ottke at bay and Kessler wins a decision.
Jermain Taylor vs Ottke - I think Ottke takes a decision.

 

Apparently is Ottke still extremely underestimated on this board. The most accurate rating was probably just after his career or at the end of it, when the memory was recent/ fresher and not just legends/ gossip.

The biggest complainment about him is likely his nationality; if he would be British or American, he would be possible regarded as one of the greatest boxers ever. Ward boxed very similar to him, but used more illegal methods as headbutts (the treatment of the referee against Kessler was worse than in all Ottke fights, similar as Tszyu vs. Hatton, close to Norwood vs. Gainer). Fury and Haye won their world titles in Heavyweight being more negative than Ottke and the fights were even closer/ more questionable decisions did they got. But nobody concerns anymore but these, because they are more outrageous/ big mouths (very outgoing/ extroverdiard) and have English as mother language.
Why some see in Ottke the old enemy Germany and can't put this out of the mind...

Sven Ottke had his best year maybe 2001, when he won 3 out of 4 by knockout, only against the huge puncher Butler did he go the distance. Kessler was at his best perhaps between 2005 and 2007. He was already vs. Perdomo, 2 months before Ward, very inaccurate in his punches and only won by his physical strenght/ advantage.

 

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I think Reid was sort of a screw job, but mostly due to refereeing. In terms of judging, I thought Ottke won (While closer than the scorecards had it).
Ottke was smart at slowing the pace down and defensively crafty, very hard to hit clean to the head - so no one was able to dominate rounds against him... Then, being at home, all the close calls went his way, something that would never happen on neutral ground, but it's still hard to point to any single fight and say that it was a genuine robbery.
Mads Larsen was probably the closest to it, I gave him 8 rounds... but even there, too many close rounds to really complain.