How many HW champions meet U.S. Army weight requirements?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by choklab, Aug 4, 2016.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No. You are saying that the "scientific research" done by the army in pursuit of healthy weights for the army results in their criteria.

    Boxing is basically an enormous petri dish for what works best in boxing. Styles, skills, the best ones rise to the top in a Darwinian experiment that identifies what is best for the sport - because the best guys win and people copy them.

    In other worlds, the experiment trying to uncover what is best for boxing - boxing - has indicated that carrying this artificial weight results in guys who are better, and this is borne out by their better results.

    In other words, if fighters were "better off" at 200lbs than 245lbs, there would be more 200lb champions at heavyweight.

    It's not natural, it's a means to an end.

    Just as it's not healthy for most of the 135lbs to shed actual fluid from their brains in order to make the 135lb limit.
     
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    So we agree.

    A fighter either cuts weight as a means to an end in much the way a jocky might in horse racing.

    A fighter can also artificially enhance his weight (as a means to an end) in much the way a Sumo wrestler might (as a means to an end) within his own feild.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't care for the sumo wrestler comparison at all.

    A sumo wrestler might artificially gain 150lbs. A heavyweight boxer, maybe 20lbs.

    The difference in the amount of weight the two gain makes the comparison unhelpful. In the case of the sumo wrestler, he might be 100% above his "natural" weight. Someone like Lewis, maybe 10%.

    I wouldn't say a HW boxer is any more like a sumo wrestler than a lightweight who wants to box at welterweight.
     
  4. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Who were these experts? How did they go about "scientifically" compiling weight requirements?
     
  5. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    :deal
     
  6. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    So the thousands of athletes who put on muscle to perform better in their chosen sports--including football and even basketball players--are "like Sumo wrestlers"?
     
  7. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    BTW, did a quick read and my understanding is that the upper weight limits used by the Army are a very recent phenomenon (1970s?) and were put in place because the military leadership thought there were too many obese soldiers. And these concerns weren't just about functional performance but were also driven by the Army's concerns with appearance and decorum. So these "expert" "scientific" military standards aren't what you seem to want us to think they are.
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    saying a HW boxer is no more like a sumo wrestler than a lightweight who wants to box at welterweight isn't saying that "the lightweight wants to outweigh the welter" which is the intention of the heavyweight against another heavyweight.

    No doubt Sumo Wrestlers carry more artificial weight than boxers, but it is deliberate artificial weight used as a tool all the same.

    It does not make them any less of a great fighter but the weight itself is significant enough for it to be tactically developed in the first place.

    We both know that the weight fluctuations of heavyweights within their own careers can be a lot more than 20 pounds. So how can we put a percentage on the artificial weight of the individual WITHOUT using something like the U.S weight requirements system?.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Not all sumo wrestlers want to outweigh their opponents either.

    Fortunately, it's not necessary. We can see that these fighters (Wlad, Vitali, Bowe (prime), Lewis) are in excellent shape and that the extra weight is beneficial for the most part.

    We don't need a special way to measure it.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Regardless of all Sumo (or HW boxer's) wanting to outweigh the opposition, the admission of the additional pounds purely to "out bulk" the opposition (on occasion or not) is still the same tactic as the Sumo?

    I dont discredit the super heavyweights like Wlad and Lewis because they were the best of their era. I'm just saying we both agree heavyweights fall far less into the U.S military height to weight system than they used to under more traditional boxing training methods because of deliberately striving towards being even bigger.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No. There are sumo wrestlers who come in at the light end and adopt different tactics.

    I have no idea why you are so obsessed with this sumo bull****.

    Yes, we agree upon that.

    What we disagree upon is what it means. I don't think it means anything. You think...wait, what the hell do you think?
     
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I think we agree on the widespread deliberate bulking up to gain artificial weight. I also presume we agree that the methods to achieve this was not possible in the past.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes. Bulking up gives HW boxers and advantage, or counters an advantage held by the opponent, so most of them do it to one degree or another. There are exceptions, of course.

    I'm not sure your obsession with the word "artificial" is particularly healthy.

    Fighters from "the past" certainly looked to come in heavy on occasion. But methods for gaining weight have certainly improved as time has passed. Gains made in ditching weight, in the lower weights, has come on even further.
     
  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I think you overrate the U.S. army charts.
    What exactly was the scientific method behind compiling the list ? Who exactly were these "experts" you mention?

    Looks to me like just a variation on the BMI chart.
    It is better than the BMI chart because it gives more leeway.

    It clearly favours the skinny recruits. I mean, you can't tell me 6'8 and 175 pounds is in the healthy range then argue that Lennox Lewis is unhealthly heavy.
     
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Obviously Lennox was not unhealthy. He was a terrific champion. Very strong h2h. but due the training practice of his era whereby methods began to utilize and compliment taller boxer's (like never before) he was therefore a product of his environment.

    By comparison to traditional training methods, because of changes to them,,there is no doubt Lennox was as overdeveloped as the rest of the fighters of his Times. He was the best among them.

    The U.S military Weight requirements "per inch of height" system was obviously researched enough to produce cut off points at the right end of each spectrum of what is the natural acceptable potential of the human population.

    Don't you think that the evidence of most professional fighters being within these limits for many, many years backs this up?

    Are they wrong?