How many of Ali's opponents were great fighters on the night he beat them ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013.


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  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    So, NOT which ones are great fighters due to their career's achievements.

    Which ones were actually still great at the time, or were great on the night, or even in the shape and capable of being great on that night if Ali wasn't greater ?

    The main candidates for me are .... Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.

    I have my doubts about Sonny Liston in 1964, although I wouldn't rule out that he was a great fighter and perhaps capable of blowing away some very good/great fighters in 1964, depite his apparent lack of conditioning/stamina/heart in Miami. I'm not 100% convinced but it's a possibility. I'd err on the side of saying, no, Liston wasn't great and probably wasn't in the shape to be great. But no answer here seems satisfactory.

    Liston in 1965 gave be struck off.

    I would say Joe Frazier was still great in MSG 1974 and in Manila 1975, despite the fact he'd already been beaten up by Ali (even though he won in 1971) and obliterated by Foreman, and was widely considered over-the-hill. Some reasonable people barely consider Frazier a great fighter anyway, or say he was only great or one night in his whole career. So there's room to doubt. But Frazier gets my vote here.

    George Foreman in Zaire 1974 should almost certainly be considered a great fighter, if only for fact that he was a great early KO artist. I don't even like the way Foreman fights in that fight, he looks amateurish, and it could be reasonably argued that he hadn't proved himself a truly great fighter at the time .... but I believe it was mostly Ali made him look that way, and almost every contender of the time would have been knocked out inside 3 rounds.


    Anyone else ?
    Perhaps Norton was a great fighter against Ali in 1973 and 1976.
    Patterson ? Personally I don't think so.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013
    Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013
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  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Foreman. Ali beat many excellent fighters though. How many champs beat great fighters in their prime?
     
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2013
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2013
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  3. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Foreman was at a physical peak but very green professionally, i think in retrospect George was beatable but I nor the public knew it at the time George looked unbeatable. Liston also was beatable but he was projected as a monster at the time. Frazier was not peak in fight 2 or 3 vs Ali, Norton was prime but did Ali actually win the 2nd 2 fights

    Patterson was fighting injury's but he acquitted himself pretty well but he was past his best
     
    Bummy Davis, Oct 2, 2013
    Bummy Davis, Oct 2, 2013
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  4. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    George Foreman was definitely prime when Ali beat him.


    Joe Frazier was only JUST passed his prime.

    Sonny Liston had n't slipped that much either.
     
    Stevie G, Oct 2, 2013
    Stevie G, Oct 2, 2013
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  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I don't know. That's a challenging question and motivates me to delve a bit deeper into the circumstances around fights and fighters.

    I suppose we could take someone like Sugar Ray Leonard as another easy case to examine. Because he had relatively few fights and his wins over great fighters have been well covered. Of course, such a discussion would be full of controversy and disagreement though.

    It's not whether they beat fighters who were GREAT AND IN THEIR PRIME, just whether they beat fighters who were great fighters on the night.
    A fighter can be not primed but still great.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013
    Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013
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  6. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Foreman had beaten only 4 ranked fighters prior to Ali fight. Considering that Chuvalo, Peralta and Norton were not stellar, his only claim for greatness was based on beating Frazier convincingly. Hardly a claim that could be justified. One single great win doesn't make a fighter great.
     
    Senya13, Oct 2, 2013
    Senya13, Oct 2, 2013
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Does this apply to Frazier too?:think
     
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2013
    mcvey, Oct 2, 2013
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I bet Liston would have cracked almost every other HW on the planet aside from Ali the first night. Sounds pretty great to me. I agree that the second time around is not applicable.
     
    McGrain, Oct 2, 2013
    McGrain, Oct 2, 2013
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  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Valid point, but I think Foreman was a phenomenal early KO artist, and capable of beating a lot of ranked, very good and possibly great fighters by early KO.
    I guess it's about what people here call "head to head" greatness.

    Of course, his true greatness was in doubt, and could well be.
    Would you even consider him great now anyway (overall, or resume/career-wise) ?
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013
    Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013
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  10. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    My problem with Foreman is, that even in his comeback he had beaten only one ranked fighter - Moorer. Let's say, Foreman and Frazier were great heavyweights, but not all-time great boxers.
     
    Senya13, Oct 2, 2013
    Senya13, Oct 2, 2013
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  11. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The real question is, in which fights was Ali himself at his peak??
     
    Wass1985, Oct 2, 2013
    Wass1985, Oct 2, 2013
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  12. doug.ie

    doug.ie 'Classic Boxing Society' Full Member

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    you could say none i suppose....as i'd imagine 67-70 being his peak.

    zora folley / ernie terell / cleveland williams era is the obvious answer i suppose.

    but..in fairness... the o.p. did ask a specific question and its not this.
     
    doug.ie, Oct 2, 2013
    doug.ie, Oct 2, 2013
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  13. markclitheroe

    markclitheroe TyrellBiggsnumberonefan. Full Member

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    Interesting...let me make it clear Ali is the best ever.just so nobody can say i am knocking him...however Lets go through his main fights...LISTON WON..Sonny out of shape not gad a serious fight for three years and ageing. then Ali spent most of the sixties beating fighters liston already beat or moderate european fighters.
    Then FRAZIER..DEFEAT..first time Ali fought anybody younger and unbeaten.
    NORTON..DEFEAT FOREMAN..WIN...this fight sealed his legend.
    HOLMES..DEFEAT Ali obviously way past his best.
    The rest of his career filled up with fights against low quality..Coopmans Evangelista Dunn
    London etc long list...and average contenders Lyle Bugner etc
    to be fair he ducked nobody and you cant fight a top guy every fight.
     
    markclitheroe, Oct 2, 2013
    markclitheroe, Oct 2, 2013
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  14. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    None.
     
    LittleRed, Oct 2, 2013
    LittleRed, Oct 2, 2013
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  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Very few great fighters actually beat another great in or close to their prime.

    We would be on pretty safe ground saying that Foreman was great in Zaire.

    Frazier had gone back when Ali beat him the first time, but was likely still great.

    Norton was great if you think he was ever great.

    Liston in their first encounter might have been no worse than in the second Patterson fight, but I think he likely was.
     
    janitor, Oct 2, 2013
    janitor, Oct 2, 2013
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