How many of Ali's opponents were great fighters on the night he beat them ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Oct 2, 2013.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    A more relevant question might be ,who did he miss?
     
  2. markclitheroe

    markclitheroe TyrellBiggsnumberonefan. Full Member

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    Yep..as i did say..he ducked nobody...i suppose if you are around that long you have to pad the time out fighting whoever is out there...he ducked nobody and gave some interesting guys a chance...Wepner Spinks etc..
     
  3. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Sonny Liston- I've heard people claim he was past prime but there is no reason to believe this. There was no indication that he was slipping. He had stopped Floyd Patterson twice (both times in the 1st round), he had outboxed Eddie Machen over 12 rounds, and he had stopped Zora Folley in the 3rd round. These were the best wins of his career.

    Floyd Patterson- Patterson was no longer protected, he fought whoever he wanted and he fought with the attitude that he had nothing to lose. Yes, he had been stopped twice by Liston but he came back with wins over Eddie Machen and George Chuvalo. After the first Ali fight he drew with and lost to Jerry Quarry (a case can be made hat Patterson won these fights). He also lost a close decision to Jimmy Ellis that could have went either way.

    Ken Norton- Norton broke Ali's jaw in their first fight and won by close decision. Ali won the rematch less than 6 months later. Norton was at his best.

    Joe Frazier- Frazier won their first fight by close decision. Ali won a clear decision in the rematch. The rubber match was epic... both a bit past prime but still great.

    George Foreman- Foreman was supposed to kill Ali, he didn't.

    He also beat plenty of very good fighters who were at their best the night they lost to Ali... Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, Jerry Quarry, and others.
     
  4. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

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    :deal
     
  5. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    The agenda appears again.
     
  6. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    I get it...I like it and I get it and I like it.
     
  7. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    Frazier was NOT great at the time of his second and third fights with Ali. He gave great efforts, but his greatness was past.

    Liston was NOT a great fighter in '64 when he lost to Ali. Another man whose greatness was past.

    Foreman was (or should have been) smack in the middle of his greatness in '74, but I have to be honest and say that something about that fight never seemed right to me.

    Norton?

    Kenny was a great man, but I don't think he was ever a truly great fighter.

    Nor was Patterson, though another great man.
     
  8. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It is nice to know that in my 40th year even if I beat the Brothers Kiltschko, doug.ie will realize that I should of peaked 12/15 years previous!

    You are an excellent poster, but come on Ali's career is such, it hardly needs the 'what ifs?'; Ali was awesome in 66/67 when he fought Williams and Foley. He was probably a little off top form when he lost to Frazier in 71. But his career is such, there is no need to make, no matter how intelligently, a prime that was not...
     
  9. Terror

    Terror free smoke Full Member

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    Foreman, Liston, Frazier were all great. Arguing that Foreman wasn't great in Zaire is a huge stretch, Frazier is a bit of one, Liston is a feasible argument.

    Norton, Terrell...

    Quarry who had lost a few but was still in the middle of his career.

    His resume is deep and has a lot of great names on it.
     
  10. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    I'm not sure you fully understand the question.

    Frazier was not a great fighter post-FOTC.

    He lost his edge, and edge was everything to a less physically gifted athlete like Frazier.

    Terrell and Quarry were never truly great fighters.
     
  11. Terror

    Terror free smoke Full Member

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    I understand the question, actually.
    Fighters lose steps, yeah.
    Frazier was still great, though.
    Foreman was great.
    What about Norton?
    Nitpick away, but his resume is full of great names. Liston and Frazier couldn't be far removed from their best if they were removed from their best.

    Foreman was of course at his best, would pre-Ali Foreman have been outboxed by Young or Morrison?

    Also, in what sense was Frazier less physically gifted? Chin? Power? Joe Frazier was not a small heavyweight for the time at all. He'd been KO'd by Foreman, but he loses that fight any time during his career. Ali had a great gameplan and made Frazier look bad in the 2nd fight, but that doesn't mean Frazier was done. He had certainly deteriorated some physically, but was still great and not nearly as worn down as he was for the 3rd fight.

    Norton, Foreman, Frazier, and Liston were all great fighters when they fought Ali. They all, except for Liston, got their game up for Ali and would fare well historically if removed from that night and put in other contexts.
     
  12. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    Liston was no longer a truly great fighter in February, 1964. Frazier the same January, 1974. Both men truly great fighters at one time, but not by the time Ali beat them.

    Norton was never a true great.

    Foreman certainly was in his physical prime in '74, but something about that fight never felt right to me. I was astounded at the sluggishness Foreman showed when I studied the film.


    Ali certainly didn't seem too interested in a rematch, did he? :yep
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    It's a simple and very valid question.