All champions, or at least many of them, have that one opponent before they become champion that really pushes them to the wire. For Sonny Liston it has been decided it was Cleveland Williams who was that person. But to me, although Cleveland gave Sonny a scare, it was ultimately still a short fight and quite an emphatic beat down. Certainly it was a great endorsement for Liston regardless of what kind of fighter Williams was. He came back at Cleveland and took care of business. it was exciting while it lasted. Williams certainly went for it. He gave it a good go. it reminds me of a longer version of Tami Mauriello against Joe Louis. Tami flew out, nearly took Joe’s head off, then Joe took care of business. And this was a championship fight. Perhaps Joe Louis was more established by then. But I don’t see Tami being turned into a fantasy fight candidate with Mike Tyson. Hows about Luis Firpo? Is he a similar thing to Williams? Again, like Tami, perhaps because this was a title fight with Dempsey, Firpo cannot be romanticised into as much of a cult figure? I would like to know about what the hidden ingredient is that inflated Williams here. maybe it’s because he was around so long. That he was a kind of eternal prospect and his record stretched all the way from Marciano to Foreman? It fascinates me how his cult following has grown above so many other fighters though.
Liston had 25 lbs on Patterson! That is a massive weight advantage that nobody you listed with the exception of Ali (who preferred to punish Patterson for the "Clay" talk) enjoyed. The fast manner in which Liston stopped Patterson is the only saving grace. It is what a big hitter with such advantages would be expected to do. For perspective. Some other HW title blow outs: Louis had only 5 lbs on Schmeling in their title bout. Tyson had only 6 lbs on Spinks and no height or reach advantage. Marciano was actually outweighed by 13 lbs in Walcott 2.
Liston certainly was a force, but in the grand scheme he had massive physical advantages over most of his opponents that many of the great hitters did not. Of all the HWs seen as a killer punchers, he's one guy I can think of where his best scalp was some 20 lbs lighter. Even Norton and Frazier were in big George's range. They just weren't remotely as physically powerful as him. The hypocrisy of people who bash the power of Tyson, Louis, and Marciano on this board....
But it was also his skills. Patterson himself wrote in his book victory over myself: “I knew Sonny Liston was powerful, enormously so, but he was even stronger than I expected. But what really surprised me, was how well he could box. It wasn’t his power that beat me so badly, it was his skill."
Yes, Floyd is right. Liston still put the right punch into the opening at the right time. He was onto Floyd like a cheap coat. And for all the bigger heavier men that Floyd fought like Bonavena, Chuvalo none of them had quite the punch placement skill of Sonny. So for all he had the size, he also had the skill. and intimidator factor.
Gregorio Peralta beat Willie Pastrano on September 20th of 1963 so he was rated at #8, followed by Zora Folley and Thad Spencer. The month before Folley was rated at #8, followed by Rischer and Spencer.
Yeah SolomonDeedes was the one who pointed this out. But Spencer despite being 10 held on to his rating while the higher rated Rischer was booted. Made no sense at all.
Folley was rated higher the month before, he was rated #8 and Rischer was at #9. Spencer was the only one that stayed while being rated below Rischer. Rischer was at #9 and Spencer at #10. Again this is the WBA. The RING Ratings had the following for those months: Champion: Sonny Liston #1 Cassius Clay (Ali) #2 Doug Jones #3 Ernest Terrell #4 Floyd Patterson #5 Cleveland Williams #6 Zora Folley #7 Billy Daniels #8 Henry Cooper #9 Karl Mildenberger #10 Robert Cleroux Champion: Sonny Liston #1 Cassius Clay (Ali) #2 Doug Jones #3 Ernest Terrell #4 Floyd Patterson #5 Cleveland Williams #6 Zora Folley #7 Billy Daniels #8 Eddie Machen #9 Karl Mildenberger #10 Gregorio Peralta
Yes I realized my mistake and edited my post after you started responding. Regardless, I don't understand why Spencer kept his rating while Rischer was booted.
My guess is that the WBA ratings board thought Spencer was the better fighter. This happens all the time!
Very nice of Patterson to say that after losing to a man who had 10 inches in reach and 25 lbs on him. Speaking of first round KOs in Heavyweight title fights ...Liston was on the receiving end of one against the only contender he faced that could match his physical advantage...funny that. Almost as if he would be a helpless quitter against someone his own size or bigger of any quality. How many first round KOs did Ali score?
Not even remotely true. He was a virtually unknown unranked 20 year old green kid who'd only been boxing for a year or so and years away from a ranking against Satterfield. Against Liston in the first bout, he was an experienced prime contender, who'd knocked out, retired previously #4 rated John Holman, and had been ranked by the WBA just recently and was ranked in their 2nd bout. 1. Patterson was 24 and 21 pounds lighter in their respective fights not 30 lbs. 2. Please name me anyone else who smashed the undisputed lineal heavyweight champion back to back inside a round, then come back and tell me what Liston did wasn't "all that impressive". 3. Aren't you one of the biggest Marciano fans on this forum and insist he could compete with the modern heavyweight despite his size disadvantage? Your statement is not only laughably hypocritical but undermines your argument quite a bit. Actually laughed out loud at this. One of the stupidest things I've ever seen on this forum. Machen was a 29 year old prime contender who was the highest rated heavyweight in the world not named Sonny Liston and on a 6 fight win streak against fellow contenders, Dejohn, Jones, Rischer, Whitehurst, and London. Please present your evidence that Machen was punch drunk. I um I don't even know where you're going with this..... Liston beat multiple heavyweights much bigger than him including the 6'5" 228 pound Chuck Wepner in his last fight when completely shot and a shell of himself.
Very well may be the case. For the record, I just want to say you're one of my favorite boxing historians by far, and I greatly enjoy your work.
