How many quality opponents did Cleveland Williams beat ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Aug 15, 2021.

  1. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Sorry to get your hopes up, I haven't seen the match up directly discussed in years, but just recently saw a thread where "Williams could have been a Champion in any era" insisting Liston was the only guy who could beat him on those nights. Hence. Threads like this.

    There are trolls White Bomber and Money May in various recent threads whatever insisting Louis was so primitive he would even lose to amateurs post 50s.

    Not very interesting. I think people are always gonna make crazy fantasy picks. Every so often a fringe fighter trends on these boards, and is discussed as an uncrowned Champion. Oh well.
     
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  2. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    I used to buy that crap, not so much anymore. Liston was genuinely dropped by a flush punch and for whatever reason did not beat the count.
     
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  3. Stiches Yarn

    Stiches Yarn Active Member Full Member

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    I think the punch definitely landed but when Liston went down, rolled on the floor, tried to get back on his feet before hitting the canvas again, it was like a hilariously bad acting.
    But we will never know.
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The punch put Sonny over. That’s what put him there. I think the antics of Ali running around the ring acting the goat while Sonny was still down prevented Sonny getting up. sonny had not had a count and was within his rights to stay down and wait for one while Ali was messing about. Sonny probably did fake that extra “roll over” to buy time while Walcott was trying to control Ali. Sonny probably didn’t want to get hit before he was fully up and with Walcott struggling to control Ali there is a good chance Sonny might have thought Ali was crazy enough to hit him while he was in the process of getting up.
     
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  5. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Legitimate knock down it was
     
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  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    was this the one against 7-3 Sly Jones? you leave out some important details here…

    Williams was the 28-0 hotshot going into this fight. He was matched to win!!! It was on the Marciano v Lastarza undercard. Williams was decked twice by the much less experienced Jones. The fight was cut at 4 completed rounds with Williams losing.

    still, Williams won the rematch. You have to credit him that. Even So, it took williams two fights to get the win over a 10 fight novice he was matched to beat when he was at the 28-0 stage of his career.

    Most people on this forum who scored the film of that fight gave it to Terrell fair and square. You are in a minority of the folks who can score this fight for themselves.

    for the kind of contender Williams was, of course there is absolutely no shame in any of the above.
     
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  7. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    See, this is exactly what I was talking about. You claim that people on this board are obsessed with Cleveland Williams and his muscles, and raise as evidence a fantasy thread where he's picked over Joe Louis. But it turns out the thread just doesn't exist.
     
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  8. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. If you think that fight was on the level, have I got a bridge to sell you.

    2. Liston was on the receiving end of one against the only contender he faced that could match his physical advantage". At this point, you're just making it up as you go. The aforementioned Williams was more than a match for Liston physically. He was bigger, taller, physically stronger, and according to common opponents hit harder as well. Mike Dejohn #10 ranked, was also a monster puncher named by Chuvalo as the hardest puncher he'd even been in the ring with (while washed up and in his last fight I might add) along with George Foreman and towered over Liston with Liston himself saying " I didn't know he had a knee on the floor. I thought he was just squattin' like he did a couple of times earlier. I'm sorry about it but he's so tall"

    Valdez, the number 2 Contender was the same weight against Liston but 2 inches taller, and also a monster puncher.

    All three men were ranked contender, bigger than him, and 2 of those men (Williams and Valdez) were top 2 contenders at some point in their career. Oddly enough Liston didn't look like a "helpless quitter" against any of them despite all of them being "his own size or bigger of any quality". Funny how that works huh.
     
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  9. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    What you wanted a link? Lol This board is 15 years old, I'm not digging for that.

    There was just a thread where the op said Williams would beat any Champion in history....that includes Joe Louis. .

    In my time here I find Big Cat to be overrated by Liston fanboys..I've had these arguments personally.. Not your experience here, okay...I take back my point, because I'm not researching old posts. Lol I'll take it back before I do that. You win. Congrats.

    Your post was still melodramatic crap. Bringing up his death lol
     
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  10. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Plenty of greatest that we do know.
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Williams was marginally taller. It is negligible. Sonny 6ft to Williams 6ft2. Nothing on reach. Sonny was a couple of pounds heavier than Williams the first time he knocked him out. The second time Sonny Knocked him out Williams was slightly heavier than Liston was but it didn’t do Williams any good because he was knocked out quicker than he was the first time!

    And there is no real evidence Williams was ever physically stronger than Sonny Liston at all. I don’t think that can be proven williams was stronger. Where is your evidence? Sonny went right through Williams twice. A hot knife through butter.

    The knockout victim was stronger when he was demolished in 2 rounds?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
  12. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    That's ok, I'll help you (I just googled it, it's really not that hard.)

    As you can see, literally no one is picking Williams. So where is the obsession?

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  13. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Google does not list every result from this board. Do you really think since 2007 these two have only been discussed twice? Lol. I'm sorry to say I lived on these boards back then. The arguments I saw may not have been a specific Louis vs Big Cat thread since we always drift off topic. And like I said "could beat any Champ in history" implies Louis.

    Though my point being your idea of reasonable (not picking him over Tyson and Foreman) is already subjective.You focused on Louis because you know Big Cat gets picked over the other men I listed very frequently, and you don't seem to have a problem with that as you give Big Cat a higher ceiling. We aren't gonna see eye to eye. As said, I take back the Louis comment anyways but not the rest..

    I do appreciate the call out and trying to keep things honest. It's possible I let a few trolls distort my view point, only human.


    I'll return the favor and leave you with this gem:

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    "what a howler.. Cleveland Williams was an incredible physical speciam and one of the hardest punchers who ever lived. Williams knocked out more than 50 fighters hitting one guy so hard he broke the mans back and he had to go around on crutches for the rest of his life...The version of Cleveland"Big Cat"Williams that Sonny Liston fought was better than any version of Lennox Lewis."
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
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  14. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I cannot believe anyone who has even casually watched boxing and seen any of Sonny Liston's fights think that was a legitimate knockout. Sonny rolling over trying to get up was hilarious and as Jimmy Lennon at ringside said," that punch couldn't have busted a grape" Heck!! even Ali was screaming, " get up! ain't nobody gonna believe this sh#t " you see he had heard the rumors of a fix too
     
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The punch unquestionably put him down. Of course Sonny was down longer than he would have been if Ali had of simply behaved himself and went to the neutral corner. Liston was entitled to take as long as he liked until the count started. Of course he did not receive a count at all from Walcott. He was willing to continue. And was on his feet when the fight was stopped!

    At least Tunney received a long count. Sonny received a “no count count-out”
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2021
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