How many victories more before Manny retires as ATG?

No lol.
You're nuthugging reputation is well on it's way to notoriety. Keep it up you can be on par with the top floydettes in no time. :good

 

Ok you win

 

The question I want answered is how many butthurt haters must a fighter have to be considered Top 10 ATG?

 

you don't have to be in the 50's to grow a brain.

 

atsch

 

I think this kind of 1 to 1 comparison to old school is wrong. Old greats where also able to pad to their record by knocking out people that would not be even pro by today's standards (if you want to be 100% even in your comparison). Then you have the race factor, especially in pre WWII era.

That being said, I feel Pac has to beat the Mayweather/Mosley winner and another 1 or 2 upcoming talent like Berto, Alexander, Bradley, Valero or etc. to be in my top 12. Top 10? I think he definitely needs to beat PBF and 2 more talents.

With today's training methods and the ability to share information (scouting, video tape, etc) competition is much more tighter than it was back then. A lot of the top fighters, May and Pac included, can be beat by the top 10 with one bad round or even a punchers chance. Back then the gap between competition was much wider. I bet you right now, PBF fights 4-6 times a year and he would have 2-3 defeats in his record. It is that tight in today's modern boxing. Armstrong, SRR, Louis, etc where beating people with losing records with less than 15 pro fights while they where in their peak. Can you imaging PBF or Pac fighting some one with 16-15 record right now?
And not like the greats where the only one with high amount of fights. Even a scrub had a 50, 60, or even 70 pro fights.

 

you sure you said eric morales?

 

You basically have it the wrong way around mate.

The competition was far tighter back then because boxing was a bigger sport with more participants, the literature quite clearly supports this.

More participants plus less weight divisions and less titles would equal a more competitive era..not the other way around.

The best of today are among the best ever, some are the best fighters I have ever seen but quite clearly the next tier of fighters is not up to the standard of past generations. Look at it anyway you want, from the film available, comparing records whatever...boxing has changed in good ways and bad.

 

That is my point. To compare any professional sport 1 or 2 or even 3 generation back fails to understand the modern context. It is easy to understand the pass with clarity (hindsight is great) but while in the midst of today's competition it can be a bit harder (Fog of War). Do you think it is crazy to compare Sandy Koufax to Cy Young in terms of greatness when Koufax' longevity is nothing but a fraction of Young's? I am not saying that every dude that have 50 wins and beat 3 decent WW is an automatic ATG. All time greats, be it in boxing, track, baseball, football, etc is often really based on performance among their peers and less with other ATGs. Statistics in regards to amount of fights, wins and rematches have been consistently in the decline for various reasons. But this should not mean that today's boxers should achieve the same numbers as old ATGs to be in the same realm as them.

Hell if your criteria is like the old school, PBF has not business in the top 75. But that is not the case. There is a general consensus that PBF if at least top 50, if not top 35.

 

A larger pool of participants does not necessarily mean tighter competition. In fact you can easily argue that if the participation is so wide, it is easy for my school janitor to turn pro.

Having a wider weight range per class also means you can have much wider gap between competitors, thus mean wider difference in competition.

Larger competition pools means larger competition.

 

Your school janitor can turn pro and many fighters have fulltime jobs like that. Its not that hard to get a boxing licence if you are fit and meet the criteria. Charlies Zelenoff turned pro for christs sake.

You are failing to see the big picture..the greater numbers is just one part of it.

Less divisions and less titles mean a tighter race at the top level. You spread the talent thinner over more divisions and by making it easier to get a title by having a choice between 4 legitimate stakes in being world championship of that division ..Regardless that majority of the fighters wont be elite, you are still going to take away a decent chunk of the best fighters from that division.

Imagine if supermiddle was absorbed in to lightheavy or jnr middle was absorbed into welter or middleweight today? How much more competitive would either division be, therefore whoever came out on top of those divisions as the best guy around would have some pretty big kudos coming his way.

 

Pac would like to go ahead and knock Void out before he retires, but Void refuses to fight him.

 

I honestly think he needs to beat them both to be in the conversation.

 

This is not my idea but I found this worth posting :

Then there is this :

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Sugar Ray Robinson is the Greatest Boxer the World has ever seen, according to fight fans worldwide. Muhammad Ali was voted as the Greatest Ever Heavyweight of all time, just beating Mike Tyson. Manny Pacquiao gathered the second highest number of votes in winning the Featherweight category, polling more than 50% of the vote.
"The selection of Ray Robinson as the Greatest Ever Boxer shows that fans of all ages understand the legend he created. In the individual weight categories the winners represented several eras. Robinson carried the banner of the 40's and 50's with his wins at middleweight and welterweight, and then the fans went up through the years with Roberto Duran, Muhammad Ali, Wilfredo Gomez, Ricardo Lopez, Roy Jones Jr and Manny Pacquiao as their selections," said Al Bernstein, a member of the nominations jury.
Fellow jury member Ron Borges said: "Well, now that the votes have been counted boxing fans have something new to argue about. Manny Pacquiao greater than Muhammad Ali? There's a generational battle for the ages. Yet one constant remains. For 60 years now one name has been listed above the rest - Sugar Ray Robinson - and so it remains today, after the finally tally of The Greatest Ever's worldwide balloting. Glad to see you can count on something is this world.''
Fans worldwide have been voting for their Greatest Ever fighters in the eight traditional weight categories of Flyweight, Bantamweight, Featherweight, Lightweight, Welterweight, Middleweight, Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight. The nominated fighters were selected by a jury of boxing analysts - Al Bernstein, Tom Hauser, Ron Borges, Jean-Philippe Lustyk and Colin Hart. Over 500,000 votes have been cast since June at www.greatestever.com.
Sugar Ray Robinson was the only fighter nominated in two categories - welterweight and middleweight - and he won them both. In terms of total votes cast, Manny Pacquaio came second with Muhammed Ali coming third. Listed below are the top three fighters in the global vote.
Winners
World's Greatest Ever Boxer - overall
1.Sugar Ray Robinson 2.

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3. Muhammad Ali

That vote is an indication of where he will stand after he retires. Considering that he is still actively fighting, he was already favorably looked up. We all know that retired fighters are seen on a better light than the current fighters. The theme that keeps repating is that current fighters are not worthy to even carry the spit bucket of yesteryears fighters.

So for all haters, try to be a sport writer because that is the only way that you can get your vote sgsinst Pacquiao becoming an ATG, because as sure as there will be sun rising tomorrow, that ATG status is already ocked on.

 

He's already an ATG and doesn't really need any more wins. The only win he would get insane credit for and clearly push him up more is giving Mayweather his first loss, apart from that I don't see anyone active out there that could change anything. A win over Valero wouldn't come close to a win over Hatton or Cotto, it will go in the Clottey category.