How might Joe Frazier have left a stronger boxing legacy?

People don't realise how much of a beating Frazier took in the FOTC, no wonder he was never able to reach those highs again. Joe was a great fighter, their is no doubt about that

 

1 ) Enter the WBA tournament instead of facing the winner.

2 ) Beat a good puncher. Liston, Lyle, Norton, or Mac Foster. Some of these fights could have been made.

3 ) Pick better opponents for title defenses. Stander and Danilels would not be top ten guys, even today.

 

Any half-decent manager would have kept an up and coming fighter away from Liston, especially a fighter with Frazier's style. Had nothing to do with any moral high-ground, just that Liston was totally done as a commodity after Maine but still dangerous. He could have put a serious dent in Frazier's career.

But to answer the thread question: not have been utterly dominated by another fighter while still at least close to his prime. How many of the very elite fighters have suffered that (and not avenged it)?

Tyson gets a somewhat strange pass in comparison. His loss to Douglas still seems so improbable to most that it's written off as some kind abberation, when it's not stranger that he came in poorly prepared and got his ass handed to him by one of the few fighters he had met that had 1. a good amount of talent, 2.was peaking and 3.wasn't intimidated at all, all in combination.

 

Let's say that Frazier retired after FOTC and Tyson retired after Spinks - who would you guys have the highest of the two today?

 

Frazier...........Clearly. He would have signed off having beaten a far better opponent than Tyson did.

 

Don't think we're really debating, since we seem to be on the same page. To say not facing Liston hurts Frazier's legacy is just silly. Being bounced around by Foreman is what hurts Frazier's legacy.

My avatar got lost in the latest upgrade or whatever it was. Just haven't mustered the energy to replace it.

 

Lets look at each in turn:

Norton - same trainer (not going to happen)
Liston - high risk low reward (sort of like Jack Johnson post Willard)
Patterson - not quite the logical contender, owing to a couple of bad decisions
Shavers - not in contention

 

Mac Foster
no 5 in 1970
no 5 in 1971

Sonny Liston
no 8 1970

Ron Lyle
no5 in 1973
no3 in1974
no 5 in 1975
no5 in1976

Earnie Shavers
no 6 in 1973
no 6 in 1975

Jose Garcia
no 10 in 1970
no9 in 1971
no 10 in 1972

Is it a coincidence they were all punchers?

 

No more than its a coincidence that they failed to climb the rankings.

 

Daniels, and Stander never made them. Neither did Dave Zyglewicz ,who was suspended by the California Boxing Commission a year before he fought Frazier for his" title" for ,not being able to defend himself properly.

This was immediately after he had lost every round in a fight with 6-7-2 Sam Wyatt.
That's three title defences against unranked opponents, defences of a title he won by beating an unranked boxer,[Mathis].

Ali said,"I'm fighting all the guys Frazier won't fight".

And he was f*****g right!

 

Indeed he was f***ing right !

 

Yet Ali is the one who gets **** for his opposition.:yep

His comeback after FOTC was several times better than Frazier's "reign" as the undisputed champion.

 

By beating Ali in all 3 of there fights, and never gettin in the ring with George...

 

Exponentially. Frazier's reign ranks among the worst in history. That hurts him, considering how, after this amazing, jaw dropping performance against the Ali, he failed to take on a credible fighter and then was dethroned as bad as anyone since Willard by perceived neophyte.

That's what hurts him most, I think. Ali was better, and he proved it: He triumphed, 2-1. Had Frazier retired without settling that question, I think it's a question. I think Thrilla in Manilla helps his legacy; While he wasn't QUITE to the task of consistently beating the heavyweight GOAT, he was on his level and would have always given him hell. The real damage in his whole CV is the Foreman destruction and the weak as hell title reign, imo.

 

regarding your thoughts on Norton. Why not? Ali and Ellis had the same trainer AND went back a lot longer than joe and kenny