How might Joe Frazier have left a stronger boxing legacy?

I do NOT count Frazier as the man until he won the FOTC. Ali was the undisputed champ, stripped of his title unjustly, always vocally determined to return to boxing. Frazier never sat atop the heavyweights undisputed until he shut THE CHAMPION up in the FOTC.

He then, as Bokaj says, fought two fighters who weren't even national class, much less world class, both horribly undeserving, and was then wrecked by a heavy underdog contender who was still rather green. That's an awful reign as THE champion, right there.

Obviously, Frazier's reign as A champion is a good deal better.

 

Yeah, he had more or less cleaned house after FOTC. If one is to be picky, MacFoster should have gotten a shot instead Zygliwitz and Patterson should have gotten one instead of Bob Foster. But all in all not much to complain about.

After FOTC it dropped off badly, though. And of course that hurts his legacy - especially the losses to Foreman. He was in poor shape for the first and shot for the second, but still it can never look good being dominated like that.

 

I don't like excuses. "I wasn't in shape." You are a professional effing fighter, a champion, for crying out loud. I'm not going to give you a damn pass for not doing your job, man, christ.

 

:admin

 

What was Joe 29? Same age as Ali when he fought him after 18rds of combat in 3 and a half years.

 

Yup.

I'm sorry, I dont take the shot or faded excuse from a 29 year old who WASN'T fighting from his teens or early 20's at the highest level. Joe had fought ONE punishing, taxing distance fight in his entire career. He was fine. He didn't come in cold against Foreman, he got iced. Too much aggression against too much strength and power. Toxic combo of styles. FOTC Frazier'd get rolled down the aisles too.

 

It was like watching one of those clockwork toys you put on the floor ,and it keeps running into the skirting board.

Frazier could not adapt his style to cope with a bigger, stronger, harder hitter .
I agree 100%, the best Frazier still gets bombed by George.

 

Exactly. And when he tried to adapt, he was uncomfortable and still ultimately made a mistake. He didn't lose the rematch with George because he was shot; He lost it because he traded a hook with his right hand at his waist with full commitment and he got blasted. Not a performance that ended the way it did because a fighter was faded.

Joe WAS faded in the rematch, and had a bit more success boxing and moving, but ultimately, couldn't help himself, and started trading. He was then, rather summarily, dispatched. Would happen at any point in his career, a prime Foreman is not the man to repeatedly exchange shots with. Limited trading, sure, but Joe wasn't used to limited trading; He liked to press the action and stay in the kitchen. Just a bad, bad call.

 

If you are under 6ft with a short reach, and an average jab, you are not going to out finesse a 6'3" banger, and if you get down in the trenches with him ,you come out without your head. No win situation.

 

Ain't that the truth. I'm a puncher, and I struggle sometimes with that tradeoff when I fight other guys who can hit: To put myself into position to use my best tools, I give the other guy the opening to use his.

In Frazier's situation, that was a truism, AND he had every other disadvantage in the book: Shorter, weaker, a lesser fighter at range(Even young George had an underrated jab and straight right hand off it, which he used to hurt Joe in the corner prior to the thunderous uppercut that caused the second KD). He didn't have the speed in his hooks to beat George to the punch so soundly as to preclude George punching back, and he had the bad defensive habit of not getting his head off center after he threw...It's just all toxic. Joe's only advantage was stamina, and it's hard to wear a guy out and drown him when you are getting bounced like a basketball.

 

Definitely.

 

I get that guys like Frazier and Duran are legends, but a loss is a loss is a loss. It ain't a good excuse if you could have avoided it by acting right. If your gonna be fat and out of it, and get your ass kicked, guess what? You got your ass kicked.

 

Beating Foreman would have proved something. If a fighter can beat a puncher and a boxer who is great usually that proves a lot for his legacy.

 

Ive never heard that. Followed boxing for a long time. Ive never heard anyone who follows the sport question Ali`s opposition. He fought everyone. Maybe they were joking.

 

This is an outrage.

With Ali in exile the fighters a man would have to beat to be considered great (from that point on) were Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena and the exiled champion. Frazier rounded them up and beat the lot! Thats his era right there. Throw in the fact that he also became the first to stop Chuvalo and had beat both jones and machen (jones who Ali never rematched and machen who his people avoided) and its a total clean up of the late 1960s.

Frazier dosnt need a pass for what went on after that point because he had paid his dues. Outside of Foreman all there was were contenders who had or would lose to better contenders he already beat.