How much credit do you give fighters for beating an inexperienced fighter before they became great

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Flo_Raiden, Jun 27, 2019.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Jones would always beat Hopkins as long as Jones wasn't old. He was just too fast for him. Hopkins has no answer, could not counter and Jones isn't the type to fall into clinches where Hopkins can use his dirty tricks. In addition to blinding hand speed an uncanny accuracy, Roy was puncher too.

    Hopkins had 23 fights under his belt, with some Philly of gym experience and was nearly a pro for 5 years. Hardly green.

    "Jones made his first attempt at a world title on May 22, 1993. He beat future Undisputed
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    champion
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    by unanimous decision in Washington, D.C. to capture the
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    . Jones was ahead on all three judges scorecards (116-112 three times). Jones landed 206 of 594 punches (35%) and Hopkins connected on 153 of 670 (23%).
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    Jones claimed he had entered the bout with a broken right hand, but still managed to outpoint Hopkins and secure a unanimous decision win. Jones reminded the world of this claim on his hit single "Ya'll Must've Forgot" later in his career. "
     
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  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    The fact they became great obviously adds to the victory.

    Depends who else was beating them at the time for me.

    No one else was beating Hopkins when Jones did, no one else was beating Canelo when Floyd did.

    Great victories imo.
     
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  3. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    It's from here .. last response ..

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  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This is why I'm confused why Holmes isn't given more credit. He was an older fighter beating younger fighters in their prime and several of them managed to become champion not long after he beat them (Witherspoon, Smith, Weaver). The fact some of those fights were close decisions should not detract from his overall greatness. No other heavy weight champion aside from Ali has beaten that many prime fighters who would go on to do great things later on.
     
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  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Because he missed the tougher more highly rated challengers (late career) who were older but certainly not old.

    Hopkins wasn't beaten for a dozen years. The guys Holmes beat where later minor champs in an era where Holmes was still champ or the title was being thrown around like a hot potato. Weaver was quite good for a short while but quite inactive for various reasons and Larry certainly gets credit there. Smith simply wasn't that good and lost 3 of his next 4 before a somewhat dubious fight with Witherspoon. Witherspoon won 3 fights and then was impressively beaten by Thomas.

    These guys are light years from Hopkins later achievements or class to say the least.
     
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  6. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This. Azumah most certainly did not fight like a green puppy against Chava. That is one of the greatest featherweight fights I have ever seen and Azumah proved his greatness that evening.
     
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This begs the question would a prime, fully prepared Nelson have done better and perhaps won?
     
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  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Azumah did improve, absolutely. It's open to interpretation as to how seriously Sanchez took him. I'm inclined to think Sanchez would never slack off for anyone. The other fly in the ointment is that Sanchez would have had a better handle on what a prime Nelson was bringing to the table vs getting ambushed basically.

    I'm open minded about the scenario. I've said many times i think Nelson gets a bit underrated.
     
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  9. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Legitimate question. But I don't recall Azumah looking better in any other fight. He looked liked the entire package that night against a legitimate atg.
     
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  10. CharlesBurley

    CharlesBurley Active Member blocked Full Member

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    This stinks of an agenda. Hopkins was 28 when Roy faced him. You could see against both Mercado fights (first one was a robbery) how good Hopkins was. He was a pressure fighting machine at this stage of his career and could throw 100 punches a round on round back then. He was quicker with far superior stamina than he would have in his later career.

    Just because no one was rating Hopkins P4P doesn't mean he hadn't already been elite for years. Technicians rarely get their due compared to punchers. Jones didn't want Trinidad to fight Hopkins because he knew Trinidad would be a PPV mega fight for him at 168 and he knew Hopkins would derail that money fight.
     
  11. CharlesBurley

    CharlesBurley Active Member blocked Full Member

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    Massively underrated. World Champion for 10 years and fighting world title fights competively for 16 years. Even pushing Whitaker all the way at lightweight.
     
  12. Bujia

    Bujia Member Full Member

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    I wouldn’t say he was the entire package, but he never played the swarmer role more convincingly than he did that night.

    Then again, I don’t recall him ever looking as chinny as he did against Sal, either. It’s been a long time since I watched it, but from what I recall Nelson’s leg’s buckled more than Hearns against Leonard that night. Sánchez could punch, but you’d have sworn he was Julian Jackson level by the effect his blows had on Azumah’s chin.
     
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  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Said the guy using a fight that took place two years after the Jones fight to illustrate how good Hopkins was when he fought Jones. And that fight was against a mediocre fighter at best who, despite you characterizing their first fight as a robbery had dropped Hopkins twice and pretty much every observer had the fight a one round swing. Hardly a robbery. But yeah, you go on throwing around the word "AGENDA" LOL.

    For those in the cheap seats Segundo Mercado had never fought a legitimate world class fighter unless you consider a shot Alex Ramos world class. From the time he fought Hopkins until the end of his career he won just one of his last 11 fights. The guy he managed to beat was 9-4-3 Charlie Smith. Yes, thats the guy who dropped Hopkins twice and got a draw with him that you are trying to pretend proved Hopkins was in his prime a year and half and two years earlier when he fought Jones. GTFO you have no clue what you are talking about. Who has the agenda clown?
     
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  14. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Pipino Cuevas lost to a bunch of no names early in his career, he was ko'ed in his debut by Alfredo Castro in 2 rounds. His record after 12 fights was 7-5 and he lost to some guys with losing records. I guess his career was basically on the job training.
     
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  15. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I honestly believe the total volume of punches landed had a lot to do with that. Azumah always had a great chin, but there basically no break of action in which was a 15 round fight.