How much credit to you give Maxim for his win over Robinson?

Since all judges only gave Maxim three of the completed twelve rounds ,I don't see that he was giving Ray much of a boxing lesson . :huh

Ray retired after this fight, and, the middles have allways drawn better than the Light Heavies.Maxim ,though a fine boxer, was never a draw.

Ray did have Archie Moore over to dinner, to discuss their meeting for Moore's title, Moore nixed it, because he said ,Ray wanted all the cash.

Archie was an old man by then, but could probably still have stopped Ray.

Instead of taking Ray on , Moore met Durelle, and got sat on his arse before making an unbeleivable comeback. and stopping the Canuck.

No one criticised Monzon for not meeting Galindez or Conteh.Or Hagler ,for not facing Spinks,why should Ray get stick, as an ex welter, for not going after the 175 pounders again?

 

Look its obvious that the heat did a number on Robinson. He suffered near complete dehydration and was very sick after the fight ... Under normal conditions Robinson wins a clear cut decision ... considering that in 25 years in the ring he was never stopped proves his chin and stamina were exceptional ... Maxim deserves credit for absorbing Ray's shots and having the stamina , based on fighting style and pace, to last where Ray could not. Maxim had a terrific chin, no question there and he was a tough, cagey vet ... that's how I see it ... the weather beat Ray, and Joey lucked out and retained his title against a better man who would have won under normal conditions ..

 

These so-called "normal conditions" are overrated, and are being over-stated in this effort to give Sugar Ray some sort of hypothetical win in some ideal vacuum that never transpired.

Normal conditions are a boxing ring and gloves.

It might be boiling hot or freezing cold, humid, maybe a bit of wind and rain. Famous fights have taken place in a variety of weather conditions, some extreme, as I noted in another post. Lots of fighters have suffered from them.
It only became such a big story with this fight because everyone is rooting for lil' Sugar Ray to become light-heavyweight champ.

 

Only because Ray failed to adapt to the conditions. He fought a stupid fight and lost. Just like Foreman did against Ali.

 

Wrong. It was one of the hottest nights in NYC summer history. Under blazing ring lights. One fighter exerts tremendous amounts of energy moving and relying on speed. The other was a minimalist with a heavy weight advantage.
Perhaps you can pinpoint the Maxim shots that did the damage and explain the doctor reports detailing just how dangerously dehydrated Robinson was ..

Please show Maxim's damage from the films , pinpoint, so we can see Joey's work in detail ...

 

Love this clown, calling Ray Robinson stupid and comparing him to pre-retirement Foreman ... that one speaks for itself ?

 

Yeah, I must be white and love Marciano or some such.

Icons and blasphemy aside, it's easy for anyone who knows boxing (don't know if that includes you - probably doesn't) to see that Robinson keeps an unsustainable pace from the first round, and that is a stupid tactic. Doesn't mean Robinson was stupid, he proved otherwise on plenty occassions. But in regards to this fight it's nothing more than to recognize what's there to see on film. If it was any other boxer, this wouldn't at all be controversial, but instead guys like you go "oh, he just collpased for no reason after keeping a very high pace in intense heat, how unlucky". High pace and intense heat will never be a winning formula.

 

This post says it, as well as it is going to be said!
H E. Congrats! :good:good:good

 

He certainly gave him more of a lesson that Ray gave Joey. What was Ray trying to teach, keep your hands down low, and when you are dead tired and wearing out, try to dance around the ring, and sit down on every single punch you through at 110% even when many are missing. If it was, then i dont really think those lessons were all that good, do you?

Fair points.

But no one really compares Hagler or Monzon with Fitzsimmons, Langford, Greb or Armstrong do they?

 

Well, as I've explained, taking Robinson's punches and being ready to go the distance, and being strong enough to force Robinson to have to move and "rely on speed" is what did the damage.
You even say the same thing yourself.
There's more to boxing than landing the punches. Maxim was no big damaging puncher anyway, we know. You have to fight the right fight and be able to adapt. Surely you understand that ?

Muhammad Ali v Joe Bugner was fought in the same temperatures as Robinson-Maxim, and Bugner was criticized afterwards for his lack of pep, and it stands as a so-so performance on Ali's resume too.

Muhammad Ali v Joe Frazier in Manila was even hotter, and with crazy humidity and crowds packed into the indoor arena. Everyone who was there says it was insanely hot.

The old-timers used to fight 20-rounders under the sun in midday in desert town locations, the fairer-skinned guys would end up sunburnt.

Dempsey and Willard fought in the sun in heat of up to 119 degrees.
A NY Times headline "45,000 see fight in sizzling heat - Crowd broils and steams sun-baked arena for hours waiting for big bout"

The only thing you can say is that "... but Robinson had to move and rely on speed" ... yes, because (a) he wasn't strong enough to fight a more static fight against JOEY MAXIM, and (b) he wasn't powerful enough to stop JOEY MAXIM before the heat took it's toll.
All Maxim had to do was outlast him - and he did.

:deal

 

Robinson was skating the fight, Maxim was out classed, no way was he the superior boxer in there.He just lucked out due to the weather.


Being unbeaten as a welterweight champ and winning the middleweight title 5 times assures Ray his place as a p4p great, being great as middleweight champs , only assures Monzon and Hagler their places as top 5 at middle.What's your point?

 

Why do you say Maxim "lucked out" ?

It's not LUCK that makes him willing and ready to come out for the 14th and 15th rounds.
It's not LUCK that enables him to take Sugar Ray's punches without being knocked out or quitting.
Nor is it LUCK that makes him strong and able enough to allow Robinson no chance to rest or no way to adapt.

Maxim was TRYING TO WIN, he was there defending his title. It's not as if he found himself in the ring by accident. He was there to win a fight, which he accomplished.

All these cry-baby excuses for Ray are unnecessary. He lost the fight because he couldn't go the distance. End of story.

 

How was he not the superior boxer? He won the fight by stoppage! That isnt controversial in any way. He was the superior boxer (on the night) and there isnt any argument about that. You can argue a bad decision, or even a bad stoppage from time to time, but you cant argue this one.

He didnt luck out. And to be honest, we dont even know if it was solely due to the weather, but i am prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. But this was not a lucky punch situation, it was as clear as day that Ray was being worn down. In all honesty, watching that fight it is really amazing that Ray didnt at least try something different for a round or two earlier. That is what a great boxer should have done. It is what Muhammed Ali would have done, and he isnt mentioned in the same breath as Robinson by most people.

My point is that you complained about Ray being criticised for not fighting the bigger light heavyweights when neither of those two fighters were criticised for doing the same. These guys are in fact criticised for this when they are ranked on a pound for pound basis. This is why they rarely ranked with Robinson on pound for pound basis, even though i am fairly sure that they were better middleweights. Guys like Armstrong, Greb, Langford, Fitzsimmons who are the guys that Ray is compared to in a pound for pound sense, did take on that third rung of weights and were still very dominant in their own right. Ray can only say that he would have beat the light heavyweights but it was very hot on the one time he tried. He is still a top 10 fighter p4p and possibly higher, but he is not no 1 and, it is certainly doubtful that he would have been good enough to win the light heavyweight title during most eras. As you said no real shame, since he was a welterweight.

 

I say Maxim lucked out because he was trailing by 9 rounds and could only win by a ko, not something he was known for.Maxim may have had a strategy to let Ray wear himself out ,but it was a very risky one because there was certainly no assurance that Ray would wilt.
Maxim was trying to win ,but the fact that he only won 3 rds on all cards shows us his own strategy was not fool proof.
I dont see any cry baby excuses , just posters taking in to account the affect of the extraordinary temperature on the result of the fight.
To pretend that the heat was not a factor ,would be not disingenuous ,it would be absurd. I don't think we are going to get anywhere further here ,do you?

 

I have asked this before, but were the 3 rounds that Maxim won, the last 3 rounds? I would have thought so, and if so, isnt this something you would expect to happen (stylistically) regardless of the various abilities of the two fighters?

And one more question (a little more sinister), but i am wondering, do you give Jeffries the same consideration in his fight against Johnson as you do Sugar Ray Robinson, because i am fairly sure the heat conditions were an awful lot hotter that day.