How Much Further for Pacman?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Funny Man 7, Mar 14, 2010.


  1. itrymariti

    itrymariti Cañas! Full Member

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    So there is a limit to your love of MP! :lol:
     
  2. itrymariti

    itrymariti Cañas! Full Member

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    I'm with fleaman on this. I think Pacquiao has the foot-speed to close Mayweather down and once he does, counter-puncher or not, Mayweather just has nothing to avoid getting bombarded.
     
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah. Leonard put in a great perfomance against Hagler, but it was very close and he didn't once hurt him. Pac was only the second man to stop Oscar in a one-sided beat down. He not only beat him much clearer than PBF did, but also clearer than Hopkins did. Granted, Oscar was younger and better against Hopkins, but considering the vast size difference...

    Even the victories against guys like Hatton and Cotto, who fall way below being ATGs, are really something, considering the difference in size and how dominating the victories were. And beating Morales, Barrera and JMM several divisions above the first he won a title in, is also some way from ordinary.

    As I see it, those seven victories are better than Leonard's best seven.
     
  4. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Pacquiao vs Oscar a better win than Leonard vs Hagler? :think

    I thought it was common knowledge that any top 10 Welterweight on the planet would have beaten Oscar weighing 147lbs on fight night?
     
  5. lora

    lora Fighting Zapata Full Member

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    There is the overriding concern about the chest-shaver being a bit crap by that time though, and hagler still being one of the best fighters in the world, during a much deeper era.
     
  6. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Pacquaio has beaten some amazing fighters with the odds stacked against him. But Leonard beat Hagler and Hearns, those two guys were absolute monsters. Not a single fighter in history has comparable wins to Hagler/Hearns/Duran/Benitez. Whether it be 7 or 70.
     
  7. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    No just the best defense in the sport. I thought Pacquaio looked poor last night, very ineffective rarely landing and easy to hit. And pin point clean shots will hurt him/deter him, good chin or not
     
  8. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Difference being that Clottey and Floyd are totally different prospects defensively. And that if Floyd doesn't maintain a decent workrate he will not be able to deter Pac for long IMO.

    Such an intriguing match-up ecause of the styles, if Floyd gets past Shane and they somehow get the fight signed the months leading up to the fight will be brilliant.

    Unfortunately it will be unbearable for either sides supporters should their man suffer a crushing defeat, which is why I'm glad I favour Pac.
     
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, Pac wasn't a welter, Oscar was the favourite and he got the living crap beaten out of him. DLH was well past his prime, but so was Hagler, and while Leonard and Hagler was quite similar in size, DLH was the naturally bigger man by some margin. Just as important: while Hagler vs Leonard was hairsplitting close, DLH vs Pac was a beat down. Oscar, who 18 months earlier had fought a close fight aginst Mayweather, was absolutely outclassed.

    This was four classical divisions above the one Pac first established himself in. Leonard, while past prime, was only division above the one he first established himself in.
     
  10. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    I saw an excellent comparison made simply with gifs. The pictures that move, Fleaman.

    The first .GIF was an excerpt from the Miguel Cotto vs Manny Pacquiao bout. It lasted all of maybe 5 seconds and showed the Filipino destroyer throwing 11-12 shots at Miguel Cotto who had his back to the ropes. Not but 3 shots landed, but it looked impressive regardless. Interesting.

    The second moving picture was an extract from the Floyd Mayweather vs Oscar De La Hoya fight. This one lasted all of 5 seconds also, with Oscar throwing a barrage of punches at Floyd Mayweather who was also with his back to the ropes. The difference here was that Floyd threw two counter right hands, both of which landed, the second of which stunned and buckled Oscar. Oscar stopped throwing.

    Not trying to say who would win the proposed super fight, I just found it to be an interesting depiction.
     
  11. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Oscar was well past his prime, not incredibly active, and was weight drained on fight night. He hadn't campaigned at Welterweight in 7 years, and had never ever in his entire professional career weighed 147lbs on fight night as a Welterweight. That in addition to his lackadaisical showing is more than enough evidence to suggest to me that Oscar was the equivalent to your average B- fighter. I don't rate the victory highly.

    Marvin Hagler was marginally past his prime, not incredibly active, but as fit as humanly possible on fight night. He was beaten by a fighter who hadn't fought a competitive fight in 3 years, was at his best as a Welterweight, who had never properly campaigned as a Middleweight before.

    Leonard's victory over Hagler is far superior to Manny's win over Oscar.
     
  12. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    They are different defensively, Clottey shuts up shop with a guard journeyman style, Floyd does a half guard version of this on the ropes and sometimes goes for the full guard against southpaws, but he also sets traps and counter as his opponent makes a mistake. This means pac is going to be punnished when he misses, meaning he'll punch less, much like in the JMM fight

    Against Clottey and JMM, Pac was largely ineffective and easy to hit, thats because they have the defenive skill to make him miss and pick him off

    The only way I see Floyd losing this, and its a possibility, is if he lays on the ropes innactive for too long.

    There is a possibility of a Hopkins/Calzaghe style fight, where Pac is busy but ineffective but FMJ is lazy but very effective. I won't make a full prediction until I see the Mosley fight as Im not sure if FMJ will be faded at 33, but even a faded JMJ should beat Pac, just a far better boxer
     
  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Since he was the favourite, this probably wasn't that well known at the time. But you, who presumably didn't cover the fight, has all the dope I suppose. Isn't hindsight beautiful?:smooch

    Hagler had actually been less active than DLH, and he was quite clearly past his prime. Leonard has been very frank with that he challenged him because he saw how much he had slowed down. Still a very gutsy challenge, though.

    But most crucially, Pac dominated DLH and beat him up, while Leonard just squeeked past Hagler. There's a huge gulf in the margin of the wins. And he did this four divisions above the one he first won a title in. Has that even been done before?


    EDIT:
    This is my view: Hagler was a clearly better MW when he met Leonard than DLH was a WW when he met Pac, and Leonard was past his prime while Pac was in his. But this is more than weighed up by the larger size difference between Pac and DLH, and Pac's much, much more dominating and decisive victory.

    That will do for input from me on this.
     
  14. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    Only in hindsight was there a consensus that Hagler was substantially past his best. Before the opening bell he was one of the greatest Middleweights of all time who hadn't lost a fight in 11 years. Now it's he was past his best, and Ray exploited this...despite himself being well past his best, even more inactive than Marvin, and operating above his optimal weight division.

    Likewise, Freddie Roach was very frank about how Oscar was past his best after being in his corner for the Floyd fight. Additionally, he was also very frank about the fresh IV marks he saw on Oscar's arms as he was walking to the ring. There is little to no doubt in my mind that Roach was correct, and that Oscar was operating at 30-40% of his normal physical capabilities that night.

    Marvin Hagler was able to put up a resistance because he was fighting fit on fight night. He wasn't having to struggle to get down to a weight he hadn't made in 7 years, it was Ray Leonard who went into the fight with all of the disadvantages in reality. That is reflected in the fight odds and how the fight is viewed, even to this day and for all time, as a huge upset.
     
  15. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    My argument is that if Oscar was so physically inept as I believe him to have been, and as Pacquiao's trainer, closest friend, father-like figure believes him to have been, then why is dominating him a great achievement?