I don’t think any of those guys were better men than the men Larry beat anyway. Larry did beat Witherspoon. Within the Holmes reign all those guys lost to guys Larry beat. Beside Larry all other belts meant nothing. The credentials for those title claims were token by comparison. Witherspoon had mild credence to warrant a title fight in the first place having hardly beaten Snipes who Larry already stopped. Tim beat Page after Greg lost to Berbick - another man Larry had beaten. this was just like any other era of Contenders. Zora Foley drew with Machen. Just like Scott Frank drew with Snipes or Thomas drew with Coetzee. Williams also drew with Machen. Red Burman beat Tommy Farr after Joe Louis beat Tommy Farr. Ron Lyle Beat Joe Bugner after Ali beat Joe Bugner. They didn’t get a belt from that. Giving contenders belts dosnt make them into a champion if they can’t beat more than one other contender. A champion is supposed to be the best in the world. It means you won a fight between the best two. A fight that decided who the best in the world is. And none of those guys like Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Tubbs, Witherspoon, Smith, Thomas or Berbick ever did anything more than beat the second best guy. It wasn’t a fight between the best and the second best. Simply a fight between the third best and seventh best, to see who was second best. And just about each of them lost their next fight. You don’t get to be the best in the world if you are only second best in the world for one fight. It used to be that the second best guy had to prove himself the logical contender. He didn’t just get a belt.
I have Larry at 3. I know all that stuff you've just said. I remember it. More wins over good opponents always helps a resume though. It just cements Larry's rep even more, but that's not really needed. Apart from Larry, there was little consistency among the others in the 80's and fighters won a belt and lost it quickly to another guy who didn't keep it long either. Then the IBF came along in addition to the WBC and WBA. More belts added to it all. There was a lot of inconsistency among the leading heavys in the 80's. Is that what you're saying here? If so, I agree. Fans were glad Tyson came along to unify it all.
yeah I agree that there was no consistency from the contenders to Larry Holmes. I also think Tyson gets credit for mopping the whole thing up.. when he was kind of fortunate to make it to contention just as the HBO series was arranged. Tyson was a terrific inclusion to the scene at just the right time. However, it was also extremely fortuitous that Tyson bypassed some of these guys before he challenged Berbick. Holmes had first had to beat Shavers and Tiger Williams to earn a shot at a title. I don’t think Mitch green or Marvis Frazier were a reasonable comparison for Tyson when he landed a fight with Berbick. Then the IBF rid themselves of Spinks to supply Tyson a fight for the winner of Douglas and Tucker, two fairly unknown prospects at that time. Witherspoon surrendered the WBA title disastrously to Smith too.. As good as Tyson was it all seemed a bit too easy for him. Just my take.
I think Holmes in one way was more impressive as a champion. I personally think he was more skilled than Louis or Wlad, but he had more tough fights as champion. Sure, Louis and Wlad had their fair share (Louis-Farr, Galento, Godoy, Conn, and Walcott; Wlad-Williamson for instance). Larry had all kinds of trouble with Norton, Weaver, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Cooney, Witherspoon, Smith, and Williams, but won all of those fights (for the most part convincingly).
I have Larry at 3. 20 title defenses is extremely impressive and I thought he beat Witherspoon clearly. Coetzee would have been a good win that he missed out on.
Depends who you removed, I guess. If they replaced guys like Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Scott Ledoux, that's good. And, it would depend on if some of those guys never won a title (since they lost to Holmes). Without ever having won belts, they may be viewed in the same light Cooney or Shavers or Snipes were.
I have him #3 but I think it’s very close and I can see him even at 5 or 6. I think had he done all of that he’d have created distance and made himself a lock but not enough to go to #2.
So if Larry rematches Norton after Shavers iced Ken in one, we would be hearing how Holmes avoided a Shavers rematch. If he rematches Witherspoon and doesn’t fight Cooney, we’d hear how he avoided the great white hope (who eventually would have lost to someone else, just as Page and all the rest did). Bottom line among the ‘Lost Generation’ champs who held other belts, they were one-and-done champs who lost it basically as soon as they won it. Greg Page’s window to force a showdown with Holmes was minuscule ... his title win came on the heels of back-to-back loses and he lost it less than four months later. You can go on and on with that bunch. I’d have liked for John Tate to have beaten Mike Weaver to set up a unification, which I’m sure Larry would have won. He was willing to fight Coetzee but the financing fell through. Oh well. I think Holmes’ resume and legacy stacks up pretty well. You don’t make that many defenses with all of them being against the No. 1 contender, but he faced a pretty good who’s who of his era: Shavers, Norton, Weaver, Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, Cooney, Berbick, Truth Williams, etc.
Read Mendoza.... Holmes was crucified during his reign. He was not media friendly. He should have fought Page , and Dokes. South African champ [ cant spell his name} would have been a slaughter. When I think of Holmes I think of two things------- Shavers punch-no one gets up from that. ---15 th rd with Norton. Watch them .......
He wasn’t “media friendly” = he wasn’t Ali. He did plenty of media. Cosell interviewed him often and Howard was the A-list media guy with boxing on TV in the day. It took Larry a little time to grow into the role and become comfortable with being himself rather than trying to project what he thought people wanted. To his credit he didn’t try to be Ali Lite. We’re talking about a guy who in his title-winning effort (and beyond for a while) was often mistakenly called “Ernie Holmes” — not because of Shavers but because that was the name of a defensive lineman for the Pittsburgh Steelers, who were the top football team at the time. And that Holmes was about the 15th or 16th best-known member of that team at best. So, yeah, he got a bit of a chip on his shoulder and good for him ... it became an edge that he used to motivate himself as he watched others get the praise and credit he deserved.
The " chip" is what I am talking about. He never catered to the white press. ( I am white) Was bothered by media reports , but find me a tougher fighter in the HW division. In his prime.... only Ali beats him. Dont even tell me Tyson ( I love), Lewis, or Marciano. Louis? -fantastic...... could not deal with that jab
