How much of Ali's greatness was luck?

I agree Liston had very little actual ring rounds under his belt ,two blowouts of Floyd did not prepare him for a fight with Ali ,but imo he would have lost had he been in his prime.

 

i don't think ali was lucky not to be ko'd by liston in the 5th when he was blind. i think ali was very unlucky on that one. imagine facing liston blind - i don't think many fighters would want to do that LOL. actually the 3rd round in one of my favourite rounds ever - all ali at the start and then liston comes back well in the second half of the round landing some great punches at close range.

Sonny Liston vs Albert Westphal

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This track (and album) was recorded in August 1963 for the album "I Am The Greatest", which consists of Clay's poems and some comedy skits.
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"i quit fighting 2 years ago, i'm fighting as a business man now" also likes soccer and Pele - interesting.
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i dont think sonny would win but it would be alot tougher

 

I don't think he was lucky at all. What people need to realise is that when he beat Foreman and won against Fraizer in the Thrilla in Manila he was past his best but he still prevailed against this great fighters. At his peak he was unbeatable.

 

I don't see much basis for thinking Liston would pose a stiff challenge, considering how easily Ali won when they actually met. Don't forget that Ali continually improved after their first fight up until his forced exile. He was a better fighter in 1965 than in 1964.

Well, I suppose we just disagree.

 

Very little

 

I think that luck pretty much balanced out in Ali's career, so I would have to say that about 0% of his greatness was because of luck...in my opinion.

 

Luck is when preparation meets oportunity

 

well the first fight with Ali, he took lightly and wasnt in great shape. For the rematch before the delay he was in top shape. In top shape he was deceptionaly quick with great skills and his power. Afer the delay Ali KOd him in 1.

For the fight to be nay tougher he has to get to round 2. but sriously i think it would be touhger than the first fight but i still think Ali wins by KO

 

But you just don't have much to stand on. Ali beats him easily in two fights, but you find excuses for those two and say "if only the second one had come six months earlier, then Liston would have proved a tough challenge". I can't with absolute certainity say that you're wrong, but your argument is a leap of faith. There just is no real substance to it.

When a guy is beaten that easily twice six months will very, very rarely make a huge difference. That's just how it is. Anything else is just vague conjecture.

 

Most people consider the second Liston fight to stink up the place.

Even Ali thought Liston took a dive.

 

I haven't heard anything about that, and I very much doubt he has said so. Source please.

I will entertain the thought that Liston quit, though. But this is just so fukking old. From what we know there is just no reason to believe that Liston would have caused Ali any trouble during these years. This is just all the same tired speculation disguised as fact.

 

Oh Yea....Dundee would fall into the talented and very connected and Ali was LUCKY to have him or he may have had an unlucky loss in a few instances...Dundee and brothers were very connected in the boxing industry

 

The harder Ali fought the luckier he got.

 

Do you know that famous picture of Ali standing over Liston? Look at Ali's posture, he's gesturing Liston to get up while Liston stares at him from the canvas. I've heard that the picture was actually snapped while Ali was saying something to the effect of "GET UP YOU WEREN'T HIT!"

Of course, Ali was hip to Liston's shenanigans in Miami in the first bout, where the linament was spread on Liston's gloves, blinding him, and he knew instinctively that Liston was taking a dive in Maine. That nonsensical "anchor punch" story came later... because Dundee and Ali had eyes on posterity.

The famous picture doesn't lie. Look at it again.

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It's as simple as that.