How much of Ali's greatness was luck?

He clearly was hit. I have a documentary about it, which shows how computer wizards made the scene 3D, and the projection shows Liston being hit with a short downward right hand. The punch never missed the target altogether, thats for sure. Depending on opinion, it's all about the impact of the punch. Was it fatal enough to have Liston dumped on his ass so heavily? Thats the question. While many people never seen the punch as it was so fast, and never carried much drag-back, it wasn't exactly convincing. But the sheer speed of the punch probably done more damage than the power itself. The speed simply enchanced the impact.

 

I can forgive 'Ali's hyperbole' and still agree that Liston took a dive.

Dives did not happen when the guy wasn't hit, the guy taking the dive went down when hit but not hit in a manner that could have finished off on the level. We know that Ali was not and never could be considered a one punch KO artist. We also know that Liston had a helluva chin. There is a wealth of shadowy information that I don't want to dig out for the 14th time on ESB, but it is utterly convincing that the fight was in the tank. No smoking gun, but plenty of finger prints.

There's also what is plain to see on the film. Liston ain't winning any Oscars for that performance.

 

Liston did a poor act at acting hurt...It would never of been declared a KO if Nat Fleicher had not put the pressure on the ref.....everyone knows that was a dive...Ali foremost ( because Liston did not get hit hard enough) but he did not want Liston to quit

 

so why did liston take a dive?

 

That's more or less my interpretation as well. Ali did connect, but I don't think he himself thought it powerful enough to deck Liston. But we can only speculare whether Liston quit, took a dive or actually in some weird way was hurt by that punch. One of his corner men came on record much later saying that Liston actually asked for the smelling salt after the fight.

Very much with Liston was a mystery, and this is one of them. But I have little doubt that Ali would have been the eventual winner in any case. He looks better than he did in the first fight. Holds himself with more confidence and doesn't skit around as much, keeps just outside Liston's range to be able to quickly exploit any openings.

 

ali looked a lot bigger than he had in the first fight and liston didn't look any quicker.
that tap on the head couldn't have put liston down and ali knew it .liston took the secret of why he took a dive to the grave and we can only guess as to why !

 

Liston actually got up from the Knockdown before the referee reached the count of 10 so we can say maybe he tried to take the full 8 or 9 count before continuing.

I cant understand why he would take a dive and get up before the referee had reached 10. I dont think Liston dived i think he was hit and went down for a flash KD and timed his count to get up at 8 or 9 then he got up and teh fight was called off after he kept fighting.

I think the referee was more at fault than Liston

 

NONE, except some past prime decisions after he should have retired anyway

BTW People who are certain Liston took a dive don't understand that sometimes an innocous shot that lands in the right place can do you in, ie behind your ear, especially when your not warmed up. Anyway Walcott stopped the fight illegally in that 1 because Liston wasn't down for 10 while receiving a count, Ali was illegally standing over Liston, meaning Liston had every right to be down for as long as he wanted until Ali was moved to a neutral corner

 

Bingo it was an incorrect illegal/premature stoppage, Walcott got the rules completely wrong and let a bystander try to tell him the rules

 

should have stuck to boxing


BTW you make your own luck

 

All of it.
He had the luck to be born with great reflexes ,terrific judgement of distance ,the best footwork of any heavyweight over 200lbs,hand speed to rival Floyd Patterson's, a chin as good as any Heavyweight Champions,a perfect physique for a heavyweight,courage in abundance.

I think if Frazier had come out for the last round he would have gone down, he was getting hit with a steady bombardment of right hands, and starting to take them flush,Futch did exactly the right thing imo.

 

no way would ali have quit dundee would not have let him, also i dont think ali was a quitter he said he wanted to quit against Liston but he never so i have no reason to believe he would quit against Joe, also he never quit against Holmes when most people would have forgive him if he did, ali was a warrior

 

He was afraid of being assassinated by religious fanatics, perhaps?

That was pretty god damned popular in the 60's if you're being selectively forgetfull.

 

Ali was groomed for success by a rich group of men before he ever set foot into the ring. He was definitely lucky there, as opposed to Joe Frazier's roots.

No mentions of Dundee tearing open Ali's glove?

A loss to Cooper of all people would have had a huge effect on his early career. And this was at time he was supposed to be unbeatable.