How much of Ali's greatness was luck?

Nat Fleischer drew the attention of the referee [Joe Walcott] to the fact that the time keeper had counted Liston out, that is fact. Walcott blew it ,trying to get Ali to a neutral corner he failed to pick up the count . Liston was down for over 10 seconds.
The punch landed, that is definite,whether you think it was a heavy enough punch to ko Liston is up to you.Ali said he shouted at Liston," get up you bum no one will beleive this".The next day he was saying it was an "Anchor punch taught to him by Stepin Fetchit ,the Old Time vaudevillian , whom Ali said" learned it from Jack Johnson", what a crock of ****!

 

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl
Ever heard of Cloverlay?
They were a "rich group of men", who "groomed Frazier for success"
You get worse!
Now tell us about the torn glove

 

Wasn't Frazier sponsored by local business men as well early in his career?

And the thing about the "torn glove", haven't we been through this?

 

You got it ,now step right up and claim your prize.
The group of businessmen behind Frazier were named Cloverlay ,and they performed EXACTLY the same function as did the group headed by Bill Faversham that supported Ali, Both Boys came back from the Olympics , with Gold medals Ali at LH ,Frazier a Hvy, both needed financing,Frazier was nursing a busted thimb and could not work in the abbatoir where he normally found employment.
The torn glove has been debunked several times, and the delay timed on TV, enough said!
the only person unaware of these facts is Russell.atsch

 

Liston was 7-5 favourite for the second Ali fight. The Mafia/mob white would want their man liston to be champ again and not let Ali and the black muslims control the heavyweight championship of the world - too much money to lose. if there was a fix then where's the paper trail and evidence of high winners from bets on this 2nd fight?

i think liston was mentally beat by ali after their first fight and he was caught early and cold by a quick sharp punch on the jaw that he never saw coming plus his lead foot was off the ground when ali landed which would've added extra affect especially concerning his balance as he was coming in and onto ali's punch - perfect timing shot (e.g. the first cleveland williams knock down happened when ali was going backwards - unconventional). Liston also told harry carpenter (bbc) straight after the fight nearly the same explanation as he recalled 2 years after the fight :-

“Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt…Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref. can’t control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up.
You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do but you can’t tell what a nut is going to do and Ali is a nut.” (Sonny Liston)

 

There has never been any evidence of a late shift in the odds or any last minute betting on ALI, I think Liston probably could have got up , but said the hell with it, I don't think it was a fix by the mob ,what would it benefit them to have a Black Muslim ,outside their control ruling the heavyweight scene? Sonny was their boy ,if they had engineered a fix ,it would have been Ali going down ,imo.

 

On the flipside, I think we can say Ali had a bit of bad luck running into Norton when he did. In his previous fight Ali had looked very fit and good against Bugner since the rematch with Frazier was coming up. But then Foreman took the title and Norton became Ali's next opponent instead of Frazier.

Missing out on a rematch and title fight with Frazier must have been a big let down, and just at that time he runs into a guy that will prove to be one of his most difficult opponents. That he had had tooth surgery that left his jaw a bit vulnerable didn't help either.

I wonder how things would have shaped up if Joe, according to plan, had beaten Foreman and taken on Ali in the next fight.

 

iffy stoppage? lyle took like 30 something unanswered punches and the last punch made his head swivel...it was justified

 

It doesn't matter if Liston was down for 1000seconds, if the ref doesn't count him or stop the fight, hes ok to continue, the fighter goes by the refs count, not a second hand

 

This is key, if Walcott had sent Ali to a neutral corner and then counted Liston would have got up and continued to fight, he couldn't do that because of the outlined reasons.

Biggest refereeing **** up in boxing history

 

No he wasn't. I don't think anyone in boxing, apart from himself, ever felt at that point in his career that he was unbeatable. He looked far from it.

 

He certainly hadn't looked unbeatable against Jones in his last fight .
Jack Nilon ,Liston's representative was at the Cooper fight and told Cassius "Kid youve' got the fight with the champ".They must have thought it was a formality.

 

The referee goes by the time keepers count ,if he is engaged in trying to get the other guy into a neutral corner.Fleischer did NOT stop the fight ,all he did was draw Walcott's attention to the timekeeper.Walcott in his inexperience, had failed to locate him before the fight started ,the man was tiny and Walcott ballsed up ,but Liston was KNOCKED OUT OF TIME.What would have happened if Walcott had allowed the fight to continue and Sonny ,[who took a couple more punches without blinking], had landed a ko shot? You would have had two knockouts in one fight and even more chaos. The public may have gotten a bigger run for their money but boxing has never guaranteed a minimum number of rounds of action.

 

The only luck Ali may have had is getting the benefit of the doubt from the judges in a few close fights. Norton II, Norton III & Young. His victories against Liston, Foreman, & Frazier were simply him outsmarting his opponent (Foreman), outboxing them (Liston, Frazier II), or just simply willing himself to victory (Frazier III). Luck had very little to do with Ali's greatness.

 

When we talk about lucky, we usually mean he came around at the right time. That there were era's where he would not have been champ etc. Fact is, Ali is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever. Think of it in simple terms, who could have beaten him. Dempsey, Joe Louis, Marciano or afterward, Tyson, Lenox Lewis, Holyfield the Klitchco's? I dont think any of them is a shoe in to beat him, fact is, I personally pick him over them. The guy was big, strong, durable, fast, confident and totally talented. I was never his biggest fan but I have to give him his due. He was lucky to be blessed with the talent he had, yes. Other than that, it wasn't luck. The guy was great.