How much of Mike tyson s potential did we see?

Look at my thread I've just started, is it really a surprise Bowe's peak didn't last long after his wars with Holyfield? Those kind of fights finish careers they don't start them. The same goes for the Tyson with Douglas, along with Ruddock.

 

Tyson reached his physical peak and at that peak he was a marvel. He was destroying grown men at age 20. Ko'ing hall of famers spinks and Holmes with relative ease. He unified and made 9 defenses. In short he had an astounding career even if he did self destruct.
The way his life was heading he was never going to regain the level of dominance he had pre-Douglas. Too much partying. I do believe he had enough pride and love of the sport that he would of demolished Douglas in a rematch and enough talent still to defeat Holyfield. After that by 93 it's Bowe that is the big challenge. Bowe could take a lot of punishment as he proved and by that point not sure Mike was up to the talks in the stamina department to deal with a large skilled heavy like that.
Mike has a case as a top ten all time heavy if he hadn't gone to jail I believe we would be talking about him inside the top 5

 

I think he reached his pinnacle and was the best he possibly could have been. Especially moving into an era of bigger than traditional heavyweights. His prime was short lived however, and might have lasted a big longer if things had been handled differently. But I don't necessarily think he was ever going to get any "better."

 

Without the excess i reckon tyson beats them all. Even lewis. Bowe. Holyfield. It went downhill quickly for him. His career went as soon as he got rid of the trainers that knew the system he,d been taught and we,re basically replaced by imbeciles. Tysons excess also played a massive part. He,d have made a mess of it even if he stuck with the original trainers.

Plus there was the problem of maybe being a bit exploited as basically a child training like a professional from the age of about 14. By the time he,d hit 21...he,d pretty much had enough.

But without the problems...for me anyway. He beats them all. Hit too hard for anyone. Go back and listen to his shots landing. It really was a different kind of power. Lewis was aprehensive 15 years after tysons prime was over. Loved to have seen him with prime tyson. Bowe couldnt get out the way of the shots plus holyfield took shots excessively as well. Anyone that done that with prime tyson wasnt winning the fight.

 

He more than reached his full potential when you consider most of the guys he fought before Douglas were psychologically beaten before they entered the ring. It was one of the weakest eras of hws and the only names were Holmes and Spinks. Holmes was old and coming out of retirement and Spinks venture into hw was just a money making scheme put together by the late Butch Lewis. He was no hw. Tyson beat some decent fighters but history will not look at them favorably. He displayed very little form post Douglas. Like a lot of big punchers he didn't really know what to do if he couldn't get the ko and things weren't going his way. When it comes down to it he never really had the heart for boxing.

 

Tyson was about the best he could have been.
Despite what people say, there have probably never been more than a tiny few boxers in history who were as disciplined, determined, hard-working and obssessed about the sport as he was, and for as long as he was.
Everyone agrees that from the age of 13 until he was about 22 he lived and breathed boxing and had the some of the best training and management, marketing and preparation to go with it.
Even Muhammad Ali wasn't as obssessed and as diciplined for much longer than that (perhaps from the age of 12 to 25, but without the presence of a D'amato like character).

The idea that Tyson was somehow unusual in becoming inconsistent in his approach to training and dedication is just wrong. Most the greats lost interest and had bad habits and outside-the-ring distractions and interests that would prevent them from living a tunnel-vision spartan existence for much longer than 5 or 10 years. These are human beings after all.

My opinion is that it was only a matter of time before one of the big, tall, long-reached heavyweights would figure out Tyson's style and beat him with their superior equipment. Even by boxing and moving or by bombing him out from a distance. I always believed that. It's not rocket science. Short fighters with short arms, as great as they can be, are at an actual disadvantage. All the slipping and weaving takes a lot of energy. A sharp, focussed supreme long-reached boxer with good timing is theoretically the superior fighter, can fight the short guy relaxed and catch him coming in, whereas the short guy has to be perfect every second and working his butt off before he can even launch his attack. Tyson made his size and style work for him the best he could, but it was limited by his height and reach deficit.

 

Exactly. Same reason why I'd pick a lot of guys to beat Marciano and Frazier

 

Great post actually.

Still think tysons power was the great equaliser. I dont think anyone hit people like tyson did...he was basically short circuiting guys...i dont remember anyone doing the same thing pretty consistantly since in quite the same way. As we know though power is overrated if you cant deliver it. Thats where the difference with tyson and most short fighters is though. Tyson could deliver that power. The system that cus devised...was actually very hard if not impossible to work out because it was based off of reflex. It was also pretty random just looking at the number system they used. The system cut off the thinking time. It also encouraged combination punching. All things hard to defend against.

They stopped using the system thats when tyson got predictable. Pretty much as soon as he left the original trainers...he started becoming predictable. It was just that his power was so good it got him through for a while. Even as far as his comeback post prison.

Thats what added to the fear of his opponents in the early days. It wasnt just the power. They d probably dealt with powerful punchers before...Its the fact they didnt know how to stop it.

 

I don't think any devised system of boxing can ever be impossible to work out or as effective as the very best improvisational boxing.
The "box-by-numbers" system is never going to be as great as the fluid artistic genius and improvisation of a Muhammad Ali, for example, nevermind with the defecits in height and reach that I already explained.

The very fact that Tyson had to be 100% switched on with his style/system to do what he did, as people often claim, illustrates the weakness of the style and the fighter. He had one style and when he slipped to 90% he was liable to lose badly to some of the guys who he otherwise would have crushed - or so the story goes. The absolute greatest fighters don't have that issue. They can change their style, change the pace, coast, stall, figure out what's going on, move in all directions, and find a way to win.

Obviously a Muhammad Ali could still lose to a Joe Frazier or a Ken Norton, men with far less adaptability and improvisational skills, but overall he'd be able to do better against a greater number of styles than those two ever could, and fare better when significantly off his best form too.
Just my thoughts.

 

2 great posts actually. The only thing i ll add is who are these greatest heavyweight fighters...that can change their style, change the pace, can coast, can stall, figure out whats going on, move in all directions, and find a way to win. To me the only one that can do that is as far back as i ve watched heavyweight boxing is pre exile ali. But no one coming through around tysons time was on or near that level. Ali was a special case though...i ve never seen anyone with that kind of ability to this day at his best. If you get the chance go back and watch ali v paterson 1. Think paterson was actually a d,mato fighter as well. Pre exile ali at his best was in a league of his own. To this day i say the only 2 i d confidently predict to beat tyson on his very best night...is pre exile ali and sonny liston of say the paterson fight. Every other fighter got hit too much. Liston would have probably bludgeoned him at his brief best. Maybe klitchko and lewis under steward. I kind of agree that the super heavys of say the 2,000,s...your argument comes into it...hes giving too much away to be nearly as effective. These guys were also safety first fighters...they kind of killed the heavyweight division by just using their physical advantages to win fights. But the lewis around the time of tysons prime or thereafter wasnt nearly the same lewis under steward. Bowe was hit all night v holyfield. Prime tyson hit harder than holyfield. Was the heavier man as well i think. None of them used their height particularly well or nearly as well as the super heavys of the 2,000,s did.

The thing is as stupid as it sounds a lot of them 80,s fighters that tyson beat actually tick more boxes than bowe, lennox and holyfield in your list of attributes. These three we,re just better at what they were good at than the 80,s heavyweights. None of bowe, holyfield or lennox we,re movers. They didnt really fight on the backfoot using their size advantage either. Lewis under steward was but not the one coming through around tysons time. Some of them 80,s heavyweights we,re actually pretty versatile/skilled. Still couldnt do much against prime tyson. He genuinely hit too hard...a few frustrated tyson but when he did catch up with them...he usually rendered them unconscious. Go back and watch him take people out at any level he was fighting at...tell me anyone that done it like that who hit quite as hard. They all had knockouts but tyson was hitting them so hard there legs we,re going every which way.

The guys coming through to challenge tyson weren,t actually that good at avoiding punches. Holyfield/bowe and lewis all got hit. Especially the first two. They werent exactly masters of not being hit anyway.

Could also make a case for foremann beating him. But foremann got hit as well. Plus none of the three coming through were as powerful as george at his best either or used their height quite as well as george did.