How much should Liston's quit job affect his standing ?

Very difficult question...Personally, I do factor in those performances against Ali, when assessing Liston...You have to, it did happen. You can't (or at least I can't sweep it under the rug) ignore it.The Lewiston fight is the main one that disappointed me.

 

Both fights were fixed, paid for. Liston was a sacrificial lamb, for Ali to build his career off the back off.

It does not hurt my rating of him at all in the all time lists, he is consistently 3rd greatest of all time on my all time lists for heavweights.

His major failing was he lacked the intelligence outside the ring, and allowed himself to be managed and controlled by the wrong people who took advantage of him.

I would favour a prime Liston against Ali, its a shame we will never get to see the proof. I have to suffer listening to all of the bull about Ali being the better heavyweight, based on 2 fixed fights.

 

It shows he had no heart and was a front runner. That said, it doesn't change my analysis of him as much as one might think, because a loss is a loss. He was going to lose that fight whether he retired on the stool, continued and took a whipping and lost a decision, or continued and eventually got broken down and knocked out. The fight proved he was not as good as Clay/Ali, regardless.

 

I've got an open mind on the subject re the possibility of a fix(es)...You've just made a strong statement...What is your proof? Or is it merely an opinion?

 

I tend to think Liston was a shot fighter, maybe the mob helped him by getting him hooked on drugs ect but I dont think Sonny took a dive he just had nothing left in the Clay fights, Clay didnt need a fix he was beating everyone he fought at that time.

 

It does affect his legacy, of course. Any loss, affects a fighters legacy.

It depends how much importance you want to attach to it, in assessing his standing in the all time lists.

If you judge his career without the two Ali farces, and judge him solely on the brutality with which he took his opposition apart in the ring then that is the fair way to judge his career.

We also have to consider the fact, that he was very poorely managed, had issues outside of the ring and was ducked by the other top contenders. He should have been world champion far sooner, I think you will agree.

My top 2 are always Ali and Louis.

 

I think it should affect his standing, other people use examples of HW champs 'ducking' fighters as an excuse to knock them down a peg or 2 in their all time rankings, Listons quit jobs should be no different

 

Exactly! kingsransom you stated those were fixed fights...WHY?

 

BTW Jack Dempsey. Very nice avator. Dempsey with Greb I believe(?) Nice.

 

Cheers:good McGrains been after it for months, but he ain't getting it:bbb

 

yes, yours is....err.......nice

 

Ali is the better heavyweight and the best when judging accomplishments, resume and his performances.

Listons, career is a "what if" for me. In terms of prime vs. prime and head to head I would pick Liston to beat Ali.