How much weaker would a UFC 8-man HW tournament be?

Saying Cro Cop is shot now is one thing. Physically Cro Cop still looks good, but he just doesn't seem to have it mentally. That search and destroy look is gone.

Saying Cro Cop was shot when he entered the UFC is another. It was only 7 months after Cro Cop had beaten Wanderlei and Barnett on the same night, when Gonzaga knocked Cro Cop out. It was less than a year after winning the Pride Grand Prix when Kongo beat Cro Cop. If anything, those fights elevated Gonzaga and Kongos status as much as they hurt Filipovic's.

Nogueira has looked like a zombie in most of his UFC outings, but I think a lot of that has to do with his conditioning. Nogueira was considerably leaner against Couture, than in his previous UFC outings, and looked much sharper. Nog is 4-2 in his last 6 fights which includes victories over Barnett, Herring, Sylvia, and Couture. If anything, Nog is still more relevant than half of the StrikeForce tournament.

 

it is the manner in which they lost. nog's loss gives the impression he is shot to ****. cc's loss gives the impression he is mentally shot to ****. brocks loss gives the impression that is a one dimensional bully. Carwins loss gives the impression that he is a front runner of the highest order.

The SF roster are generally well conditioned, well rounded fighters with alot of experience.

 

Shot is shot regardless of the cause. Mentally shot, which Cro Cop is is just as bad as being physically shot. He is also physicality past his prime

His fight against Barnett was in 06, 5 years ago. That does not give an acturate representation if how he is today. The biggest issue for Nog is that his formally iron chin has now left him and he has been brutally KTFO, when back in the day he would and did eat huge shots all the time.

 

None of the StrikeForce guys are on a 10 win streak.

Overeem is the closest. He is 9-0-1nc in his last 10.
Fedor is on a 0 fight win streak, he lost his last in his last outing.
Werdum has won 3 in a row.
Silva has won 2 in a row.
Arlovski is on a 3 fight losing streak.
Kharitonov is the last to beat Overeem, but is 1-1 in his last 2 fights.
Rogers has lost 2 in row.
Barnett has won his last 6 fights.

 

Crocop's loss to Gonzaga was IMHO a product of him not adapting well to the cage and elbows combined with Gabe putting in a great performance. From that KO onwards I think its clear he lost alot of his drive but I do think there has also been a clear physical decline, ever since he had that knee infection in early 2009 he's looked alot slower on his feet and has been carrying alot more fat.

Nogs decline is IMHO obviously the reuslt of age and the punishment he;s taken down the years catching up with him. His reactions are nowhere near as quick as they were during his peak years, watch the fight with Sergei and you'll see sharp fast boxing totally unlikely the slow plodding displays we've seen recently.

The match with Randy was sadly a bit of a false dawn, if you watch it with a cooler head you'll see that Couture beats Nog to the punch thoughout the match just doesnt have the power nore chin to trade with him.

If Nog sucessfully changed his tactics to a more ground focused style ala Maia I think he could still be relevant(although probabley not top 5) but aslong as he keeps looking to trade he's going to keep getting finished.

 

The point is he wasn't shot when he entered the UFC. Cro Cop was still active, and still winning big fights. He couldn't handle the transition to the cage.

The Barnett fight was 12-31-06, so it was really only 4 years ago. The timing of that fight isn't what I was saying is relevant. Nogueira's caliber of wins are better than Barnett's since that fight, in which case Nog was the victor.

Nog's chin is less of an issue than his legs. Nogueira never floated like a butterfly, but he used to circle his opponents. Look how he showed up fat, backed up in a straight line against Mir. Mir stepped forward and dropped him. Mir dropped Kongo with a good punch, and Kongo takes a good shot.

 

I think Nogs chin has often been overhyped down the years, its good and he did eat alot of punishment from Fedor in the first match but in his prime years his boxing was good enough that he was very rarely eating plum shots standing. That overhand Fedor landed on him in the 3rd match is really the only one I can remmber.

 

All true(although I'd question how much of a test Randy was by 2009) but equally but that doesnt tell us that Nog is a better fighter than Barnett at this stage. Josh while having faced lesser competision is undefeated and has looked in similar form to his prime years, Nog has lost twice and has looked well off his best form in a number of fights.

Nogs decline seemed rather sudden because he'd not been that active, in reality he'd fought twice in two years since beating Barnett by the time of the Mir match. That headkick from Heath also hasened his decline IMHO, very nasty shot that would have layed out most fighters and did indeed KO Nog for a second, it was only his great recovery that allowed him to survive.

 

and herrings cautiousness when going to the ground in a hesitant effort to finish Nog... he knew the dangers first hand.


rekcutnevets,nog surely is far removed from his best trying to convince us otherwise is a waste of time, same goes for cro-cop.

we were born with two eyes after all....atsch

 

So? How does that impact on how good or bad he is now?

They are but Nogs also been KTFO twice since then.

Nog does not hold a shot like he used to he got brutally KO'd worse than any of Cains or Mirs other KO wins. A big step down from the guy who used to have one of the most rock solid chins in the game. That is a big issue for a guy who used to be able take a beating and pull a sub out his ass.

There will be no room for the taking a beating portion.

 

As I'v said In the past I think the way the UFC have hyped so much of their HW division off of Nog and Randy has made the rankings of many fighters HIGHLY questionable.

Thats not the way you honiestly build a division, you want rankings built off of a large number of different opponants to make them legit. You don't want Mir, Lesnar, Carwin and Cain all getting a ticket to the top 5 off of a Nog who really didnt look near to his high ranking.

If people started claiming Rogers and Bigfoot where clearly top 5 because they beat AA I'd have a similar problem with it. AA has not looked the same since being KOed by Fedor the same way he didnt looke dthe same for 2-3 matches after being TKOed by Sylvia in the second fight.

 

I don't know, you tell me. My comment before our back and forth:

I believe rank and relevance are based on what you do first, and how you look doing it 2nd. Nogueira was the higher ranked fighter after beating Barnett. I think he has better wins since their encounter. True, Nogueira has been stopped twice, and that is a valid point. I also think that those fighters would defeat Barnett. I'll take the Nogueira of the Couture fight over the Barnett of the Yvel fight.

In regards to Nog's chin, I won't argue it's as solid as ever. I don't think that is possible. Just as NFL players have proven to be more susceptible to concussions after receiving one, I think fighters are less resistant to blows as their careers go on. I just think that Nogueira's conditioning has been as large of a factor as anything on how he has looked in his past few fights. Nogueira has been visibly shaken in the past, but was able to rely on his resolve and conditioning to survive. Nogueira has only looked to be in shape in one of his UFC fights, and that was the one against Couture.

 

How you lose is very important imo. If nog had lost close descsions to Cain and Mir thats one thing but he was brutally beaten. Nog over Barnett at this point I cannot see at all. Barnett has looked solid and has a win over Nog already, when they were both at their best. Nog appears to have dropped off a lot more.

He didnt look in shape for his fight with Cain?

 

How you lose is important, but Nogueira looked to be in **** shape for his loss to Mir.

I haven't been overly impressed with Barnett recently. He dominated Yvel positionally, but Yvel has been getting his ass kicked in the UFC. I would feel better about Barnett had he finished Yvel quicker. We may get a better picture of where he is against Rogers. Either way, the tournament will tell us more about where he still stands.

Yes, you're right. I should have said he looked to be in shape in 2 UFC fights. Nogueira looked to be in shape against Cain. Unless I see Nog show up in great shape, and lose to a lower caliber fighter it's difficult to judge. Velasquez may very well go on to be another all time great. It's too soon to tell.

 

Don't disagree with any of that really.