How much would Langford, Jeannette, McVey, and GunBoat Smith add to Johnson's legacy

I was a member of the ANC when Mandela was leading it with Arch Bishop Tutu and Joe Slovo supporting him .I didn't admit it, I proclaimed it and I'm very proud of it! They achieved the abolishment of that disgusting practice apartheid.

As to Johnson I judge boxers on their capabilities in the ring.

I believe you to be a racist bigot and I'm not alone in that opinion. Your opinion is totally irrelevant to me and ,on the subject of Jack Johnson is so discredited that posters automatically take the opposing view to you in a knee- jerk response,haven't you noticed yet?

 

Mendoza;17984702]Save your racist BS for your private meetings. You, sir, have admitted to giving money to an organization who abuses human rights, and go out of your way to dimish most accomplished white heavyweight. What;s the deal?

I dislike Johnson for the following reasons.

1 ) He's a wife beater, and pimp of women. He also beat on a sickly 120-pound man, claiming self-defense. Some man he was...

2 ) As champion he skirted the best black challengers out there, drawing the color line against this own person. A champion is a defined by who he beat. In Johnson case, he has some draws and easy marks for wins.

3 ) He's boring in the ring, and overrated in general, and is disrespectful to his opponents when the fight is going his way.

4 ) He's a selfish ***** who wanted to be the only black champion ever.

5 ) He fouls too often. Hitting and holding, going low in more than one fights, hitting on the break etc.

6 ) He's a liar. Saying the Willard fight was fixed among other excuses.

DO I really need to add more? My #1 and #2 all time heavies are Ali and Holmes, by the way, both of whom said racy things, so check your **** at the door.

Might I suggest you order a Mellow Yellow at the bar, it best suits your character!



After reading multiple books on Johnson, you can't debunk what I said, as its the truth in or out of the ring. Can you say checkmate again? All you have is racist BS. Johnson also quit in fights:hi:[/quote]

Johnson retired in 2 fights he was respectively 47 and 49 years old.
Muhammad Ali retired against Holmes ,he was 38 years old .

Frazier retired against Ali ,he was 31years old.

Liston retired against Ali he was 34?
Vitali retired against Byrd, he was 28 years old.

That's just looking at a few heavyweights.
Johnson was dsq'd only once, on a debateable foul against Jeannette.
He was warned once for hitting on the break against Moran.
Apart from the debateable dsq against Jeannette, when do you say he hit low? Which fights?

Apart from the warning against Moran ,when did he hit on the break in fights in which the two parties had not mutually agreed to do so? Which fights?


Johnson was disrespectful to his opponents?
He praised Burns and Jeffries for their courage,he went over to shake hands with Jeffries after he had beaten him and was turned away.
Jeffries refused to shake his hand when they signed the contract to fight and after he had been beaten.Respectful?


Burns called Johnson ,"a bloody n*gger and a damned hyena with a n*ggers yellow streak down his back."
Is that respectful?

Jeffries , when asked if he would fight Johnson replied, " I'm not into fighting skunks," and when he had signed to challenge him ," I'll kill that co*n" ,
"I wont fight a n*gger","when there are no more white men left to fight I shall retire".Respectful?

Flynn said, "if I don't beat this n*gger my manager has my permission to shoot me"Respectful?

Hart said," I've never fought a n*gger ,I am a Southerner ,I don't like n*ggers but I will fight this one just to put him in his place".Respectful?

Johnson was never found guilty of pimping, or living off the earnings of a prostitute ,he was found guilty of taking a woman,[later his wife,] across the state line for immoral purposes,[to have s*x with her.]
The fact that he regularly consorted with prostitutes is hardly unique among the fistic fraternity.
John L Sullivan lived with Anne Livingstone a ,"working girl".
Stanley Ketchel patronised loads of prostitutes indeed he caught syphilis from one.
Jim Corbett ended up in court after hitting his missus and he paid for s*x regularly and was in the company of prostitutes many times. As was Sam Langford .
A modern equivalent? Mike Tyson!

Johnson went to Roxborough and Black and offered to train Louis to win the title,if he didn't want another black to become champion, why would he do that?:huh
Johnson twice signed to defend his title against Jeannette and once against Langford, The authorities vetoed the Jeannette defences and Woodman,Langford's manager could not come up with the agreed cash binder for that fight .
Johnson also agreed to fight Langford and McVey in Australia for McIntosh but McIntosh withdrew the offer once Johnson became a fugitive.
Ray Robinson beat his wife so severely she miscarried on at least two occasions , does this have any relevance to his ability as a fighter?
More modern champions who have been convicted of domestic violence include Corralles,Mayweather,and Chacon. That's just off the top of my head.
Immediately after the Willard fight Johnson made a public statement saying Willard beat him fair and square ,that he took his hat off to him, and that he had no kick coming.

He didn't say ,[as Jeffries did against him,] that he had been given "drugged tea".

He signed a letter later ,saying he had thrown the fight ,he did it because he was broke and in desperate need of money, Nat Fleischer bought it ,but never believed it.

I was a member of the ANC during Nelson Mandela's time, point out one instance when they abused human rights during Mandela's leadership?

No charge for the history lesson, but you really need to do something about learning to read and write ,there must be classes you could attend at night instead of coming on here frothing at the mouth all because of an uppity black man who didn't know his place over a century ago.atsch
That's you completely ,and comprehensively rebutted, outclassed,routed,owned ,and as we say in the vernacular of Southeast England.
DONE UP LIKE A KIPPER!!!!!:rofl:noclue


See you later Jim Crow:hi:

 

Bottom line. Johnson drew the colour line against the three best heavyweights of his era, saying it was because they couldn't put up the cash he demanded. Yet he gave a relative unknown black man a shot for much less than $30,000. As for his ethics in the ring, there is testimony from two of the three men in the ring at the time that, despite having agreed to clean breaks, in the very first round Johnson struck Burns a knockdown blow when McIntosh called for a break.

Johnson was a brilliant defensive boxer who was noted in his day for his unwillingness to press the attack. It was this seemingly faint heartedness that cost him the decision against Marvin Hart. He was a fighter who, like Corbett, preferred the sure thing and, when possible, chose opponents who presented little or no risk.

How can anyone seriously believe that title defences against the three best heavyweight contenders in the world as well as Gunboat Smith [who had beaten both Moran and Willard] would not positively impact Johnson's legacy?

 

Bottom line you don't know what you're talking about.
Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice
for the promoting brothers the McMahon's the authorities vetoed the fight both times. Johnson and Burns agreed to hitting in the clinches prior to their fight ,indeed Burns said that if he fought Johnson again he would insist on clean breaks! Smith beat green versions of Willard and Moran,lost to Carpentier who floored him and was destroyed by Langford, he would not have been a match for Johnson. Jim Johnson ,whom you disparage had beaten Jeannette drawn with McVey and Ross ,and less than a year after fighting Johnson would draw with Langford and Jeannette ,neither of whom were fighting with a broken arm as champion Johnson had been!

 

Bottom line you don't know what you're talking about.
Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice
for the promoting brothers the McMahon's the authorities vetoed the fight both times.
Johnson signed to fight both Langford and McVey for McIntosh in a 2 fight deal, in Australia but the offer was withdrawn when Johnson fled the country.


Johnson and Burns agreed to hitting in the clinches prior to their fight ,indeed Burns said that if he fought Johnson again he would insist on clean breaks! It was "protect yourselves at all times". Promoter and referee McIntosh a close friend of Burns said this the day after the fight."Neither man fouled or complained of fouls".

Joe Woodman said the week after Johnson stopped Burns that he would not allow Langford to fight Johnson over a longer distance than 12 rounds because of Johnson's greater size. San Francisco Examiner Dec 30th 1908. After Johnson thrashed Jeffries Tex Rickard the promoter and referee of the fight said no one has a chance with Johnson the only man who can beat him is himself,if he stays in shape he will retire undefeated.
He said Langford was too small to make show with Johnson and that it would not be a draw.He further said the best match and draw available was Langford v Burns.
Smith beat green versions of Willard and Moran,lost to Carpentier who floored him and was destroyed by Langford, he would not have been a match for Johnson. Jim Johnson ,whom you disparage had beaten Jeannette drawn with McVey and Ross ,and less than a year after fighting Johnson would draw with Langford and Jeannette ,neither of whom were fighting with a broken arm as champion Johnson had been!
I think I've dealt with your statements.
Now may I recommend Adam Pollack's two biographical volumes on Jack Johnson to you,"The Rise " and "The Reign"? Then you won't make anymore incorrect statements about Jack Johnson!

 

I've asked you before and Ill do so now ,as I'm white myself how does it work that I am racist against my own race?

You're just too dumb to take seriously aren't you.:-(

Meantime produce those offers and quotes I've repeatedly asked for.

 

I'm referring to you making unfounded statements and when called on to prove them just waffling and producing jack sh*t.
I back up everything I say with primary sources , for example I can produce the McMahon brothers quotes and the newspaper and date they made them stating that Johnson had signed to fight Jeannete and the terms that he had agreed to .
I can also produce a further statement by them saying they had called the fight off ,"in the best interests of boxing ".
What had actually happened, and its something you are entirely ignorant of ,is that Johnson was barred from fighting in NY by the NY commission, he even attempted to spar for charity only to have the police stop the exhibition.

I don't blame any society for any of the worlds ills I blame racist individuals like yourself for the divisions between races ,racist individuals of all countries and colours ,closed minds that are fanatically bigoted , like the a*sehole who has just gone crazy in your home state leaving 50 dead in his wake .

Bottom line ,once again you have ducked out of producing anything verifiable to back up your fairy tales. It's just venom , bile and pure hate that keeps you coming back for more humiliation time after time.

There's nothing to you but hatred you cannot formulate a response or make a cogent argument to support your points , you're just a sad and pathetic clown,who foams at the mouth at the very thought of a man who has been dead for 70 years! How Jack Johnson would flash his golden smile if he knew how much he still gets up your lily-white nose!

 

Johnson did not generally hold. By placing his gloves around the backs of his opponents arms they could still throw punches. Look at his bout with Flynn. Flynn wailed away at Johnsons midsection but Johnson took away his leverage by controlling Flynns ability to shift his weight. If you want to see holding watch Ali hold Frazier in fight two. Joe could not punch if he tried. Watch Tunney hold Dempsey continually every time Jack got close.

 

Still waiting for a reply on the quotes I requested from you.

 

Johnson did not fight the three best heavyweights in the world, yet defended his title against Jim Johnson who was the Leroy Jones or David Bey of his era. He managed one six-round decision over Jeannette and lost to Fred Storbeck and P.O. Curran amongst others. Please don't try to tell us that Jim Johnson was better than Langford, Jeannette and McVea. Or Gunboat Smith. Styles make fights and as they never actually fought, you'll never know if Smith might have been the one to beat Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson did not break his arm in the first round of his fight with Jim Johnson. He had a minor fracture of the radial bone in his left arm, most likely suffered when the two men fell over each other in the last round.

Would Joe Louis' legacy have been harmed if he had avoided Tommy Farr, Max Schmeling and Jersey Joe Walcott? Would Ali's if he had ducked Joe Frazier, Ken Norton or Sonny Liston?

Title wins against prime Jeannette, McVea and the man considered by many the greatest pound-for-pound fighter of all time Sam Langford, would have been huge.:hi:

 

Johnson said he broke his arm in the third round, who said it was the first?Why do you say the injury happened in the last round ? What tells you that's the case or is it your intuition?
I've never implied that Jim Johnson was better than Langford ,McVey or Jeannette but the fact that he was able to hold them to draws says he was a decent fighter or do you disagree?

BTW Johnson beat Jeannette twice

He also beat Jeff Clark and Arthur Pelkey .


Now do you want to address the fact that Champion Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice in the US , and agreed to fight both Mcvey and Langford in Australia only to have the fights cancelled or will you ignore that and just keep repeating bullsh*t?

 

Newspaper accounts of the actual fight say both Johnsons fell to the canvas in the last round with Jim on top and it was most likely then that Jack incurred the slight fracture to the radial bone of his left arm.

Jim Johnson managed a 6-rd decision over Jeannette then lost six times to him. As for beating Pelkey, the Canadian was pretty much finished by the death of McCarty according to his wife. From January of 1914 to April 1915 when he lost to Johnson Pelkey was beaten in 9 of 11 contests, stopped inside the distance in seven of them. Jeff Clarke was a good light heavyweight rarely weighing more than 175, usually less. When he lost to Jim Johnson in 1917 he was outweighed by more than 40 pounds and still managed to stay 8 rounds with him.

Jim Johnson fit the classic description of a trial-horse or a pork 'n beaner. He used his size against smaller men and even then lost more than he won if his opponent was any good.

No matter how you put it, Jack Johnson gave title shots to Frank Moran, Battling Jim Johnson, Fireman Jim Flynn, Stanley Ketchel etc. but side-stepped the three best heavyweight contenders of his era and even ducked Gunboat Smith!

Like other champions before and after, Johnson was a great fighter but a poor champion. It's unfortunate that the IBU did not have the political clout to force him to fight Langford, Jeannette and McVea. He might actually have prevailed against them and cemented his place amongst the greatest, but he avoided them so for all we know he would have had his backside handed to him on a plate. Tsk tsk.:good