How much would Liston, Shavers, Lyle, and Norton add to Joe Frazier's resume?

Was he better against Patterson than he was against Williams or DeJohn 3 years & 4 years earlier.Do you think he couldn't have duplicated those wins over Floyd those three/four years earlier, given the opportunity?
Liston was .
no9 in1958
no3in1959
no1 in1960
no1 in1961
He ko'd the men rated above him in 60 and 61 and the other champion who reigned when he was ranked in that period, Johannson,turned down $1000,000 to fight him

 

He said so himself in an interview.

 

It's not really accurate to go by census data. My grandfather was born in 1916 and wasn't listed in the census until 1940 and all of the information was dead wrong.

 

Mathis was not ranked by the ring ,not sure if Chuvalo was ranked in67
Which contenders that were rated at anytime in their careers did Frazier defend against from March 1971 until Jan 1973?
Valdes,Bethea,DeJohn,were all ranked in the 50's.

Liston had his 1 st pro fight in October 1953.

From March 56 until Jan58 he was inactive in the "Big House".

You don't give him much of a window of opportunity do you?

 

Chuvalo was ranked #4 by Ring going into the Frazier fight. Frazier was ranked #3. That fight knocked Chuvalo out of Ring's rankings until late 1968 when he beat Manuel Ramos.

Regardless of Liston's age between 1968 and 1970, he was regarded as a top 3 contender until the Martin loss, after which he hovered between 5 and 6. The Wepner fight dropped him a couple notches more. A Liston win would have boosted Frazier's legacy somewhat.

Wins over Norton & Lyle between 1973 and 1975 would've looked good on Joe's record, probably on par with his wins over Quarry and Bugner.

In many ways Shavers didn't really get going until 1976, when Frazier was basically done. Before that he was a guy who beat an aging but viable Jimmy Ellis and was beat by Quarry, Stallings, and Lyle. A win between 71 and 75 doesn't hurt Frazier, but it doesn't help him that much.

 

I don't know.

 

Look how much credit Joe gets for Stander. Then remind yourself that 2 years before that fight, Stander knocked out Shavers, and in the time frame between Stander knocking out Earnie and getting dismantled by Joe, Earnie hadn't beaten a single ranked contender.

For those who subscribe to the "Joe was guided around punchers" narrative, beating Shavers would count for something, but so far as overall quality goes? There's a healthy dose of rose-coloring and revising history necessary in order to paint him as a viable contender for Joe.

 

It was a spin-off discussion of Liston apparently being an old man when he had his best victories. Of course, I don't judge Liston on his fights in the 50's, when he was still developing and, as you said, spent time in prison.

I'm merely saying that he was at his best in the early 60's, no matter his alleged age at the time. To claim that the Liston who cleaned out Patterson et al was an aged shell of the man who beat Marshall in the rematch doesn't really hold water.

 

This sums it up quite perfectly.

 

BB is one of those guys I could listen to all night Mac. You don't get guys like Clapton, the Ray Vaughn brothers, Joe Walsh, Knopfler, Robert Cray, Joe Bonamasa, and many more than I could ever mention looking for any excuse to play along side you if you're sh!t. That's for fukkin sure.

 

I guess he is the man when it comes to blues.I'm more of a Django Rheinhardt guy.My partner is a Pat Metheny fan.

 

just against foreman, every fight is different

 

One can only wonder at the ability of Rheinhart. Especially when taking into account the damage suffered to his left hand. Your partner obviously has good taste too if she likes Pat Metheny. I like all genres of music, though my favourite is blues based, but I have to admit some forms of jazz are a bit too specialist for my taste.