How Much Would McVey and Johnson Add To Jeffries Legacy??

mcvey · Jun 14, 2016

Mendoza said: ↑

It's clear Jack was in some trouble in the Jim battling Johnson match. The fact that one judge voted for Jim as the winner and none voted for Jack as the winner suggests this was a give the champion a draw even though he didn't deserve it.

Do you dispute Johnson was in trouble at the close of the fight? How do you know the times report was not accurate. You don't!

Adam is your gold standard. Read his book. He says Hart won. :deal Prove to me that Siler was at the fight and it wasn't filmed. I dount you can. Just 5,000 or so saw the match.

As for Jim Johnson, it's clear you don't know how to interpret ring records.

Langford and Jeanette beat him prior to facing Johnson in 1913.

from 1913-1915 Jim Battling Johnson's record vs Langford, Jeannette and Mcvey is as follows.

1 win, 8 losses 4 draws. He was a journeyman with size and youth on his side. If should be noted that the best talents that Johnson ducked as champion in Langford, Jeannette, and McVey all have a win over Jim Battling Johnson, yet Jack does not, and could have been lucky with that draw.

On the fight, not from the NY times:

:deal Count the ducks sucker.

All facts with the only question on Siler being at the match which you will need to prove. In your face as usual, but you don't have much of a face here, so it doesn't matter.
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George Siler? Here's a quote for you.
"To my mind Jeffries is today really more afraid of Johnson ,than any other man in the ring" George Siler. Police Gazette Sept 16th 1909 and The Freeman Sept 9th 1905.

Ringrat · Jun 14, 2016

mcvey said: ↑

You don't think fighting with a broken arm may have had some impact on Johnson's performance?
Do you even realise how ludicrously absurd you are?atsch.
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Actually, to be fair, that would depend on when Jack Johnson's arm was injured.

As for Jeffries' chances against Johnson circa 1905, contemporary records state that Johnson was ringside when Jeffries demolished Jack Munroe. One reporter is said to have asked him if he still wanted to fight the champion. The question was met with stony silence and the usually verbose Johnson walked away.

The Jeffries of 1910 had no chance of beating Johnson, even Jim Corbett Jeff's head trainer admitted his charge was in no shape to beat the big Texan. The Jeffries of 1905 was a different story. He was probably at his absolute prime. In a 45 round or finish fight he would have worn Johnson down in the clinches, no grabbing elbows as Johnson liked to do. Jeff would have tossed him like a rag doll. It would have been much the same as the first Corbett fight, though even Johnson had to admit that Corbett was technically a better all-round boxer. In a ten or twenty round contest Johnson might have managed to outpoint Jeff or at least avoid a knockout.

After 1905 the odds would slowly swing around to Johnson's favour.

mcvey · Jun 14, 2016

Ringrat said: ↑

Actually, to be fair, that would depend on when Jack Johnson's arm was injured.

As for Jeffries' chances against Johnson circa 1905, contemporary records state that Johnson was ringside when Jeffries demolished Jack Munroe. One reporter is said to have asked him if he still wanted to fight the champion. The question was met with stony silence and the usually verbose Johnson walked away.

The Jeffries of 1910 had no chance of beating Johnson, even Jim Corbett Jeff's head trainer admitted his charge was in no shape to beat the big Texan. The Jeffries of 1905 was a different story. He was probably at his absolute prime. In a 45 round or finish fight he would have worn Johnson down in the clinches, no grabbing elbows as Johnson liked to do. Jeff would have tossed him like a rag doll. It would have been much the same as the first Corbett fight, though even Johnson had to admit that Corbett was technically a better all-round boxer. In a ten or twenty round contest Johnson might have managed to outpoint Jeff or at least avoid a knockout.

After 1905 the odds would slowly swing around to Johnson's favour.
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Reports of the fight said the champion bossed the early rounds then used his left very sparingly after the 3rd round.Ringside reports from The London Daily Mail,The Times,Le Matin,Le Petite Parisien , L' Humanite and Le Temp can be found in Pollack's second volume on Johnson ,"The Reign". neither the NY Times The NY Herald, The L.A Daily Times or The NY American had a reporter present.
I think you've got those "reports
" a bit round your neck.
Johnson was present at the Munro fight and tried to enter the ring to challenge Jeffries but was prevented from doing so.

The day after the fight Johnson's then manager Zack Abrams posted a $2.500 cheque with the newspaper The Bulletin as proof of good faith regarding a challenge to Jeffries.He further said he and Johnson were prepared to post a$10,000 side bet and fight winner take all.The Bulletin ,in it's next editorial wrote:
" Johnson is the only heavyweight in sight who has the,size cleverness,and punching abilty to make Jeffries get busy."

I wouldn't be sure Jeffries would manhandle Johnson no one ever did. And when he was fresh against Johnson the older Jeffries couldn't do anything with him Johnson controlled him in the clinches.

janitor · Jun 14, 2016

I think that any potential challenger post 1903, with the exception of Johnson, would have been seen as being significantly weaker than Sharkey, Fitz Ruhlin etc.

mcvey · Jun 14, 2016

Mendoza said: ↑

McVey was 19 years old in 1903 and only had four recorded fights in 1902. He did not fight prior to 1902...so says Box Rec. Mcvey quit the game for a year after losing to Denver Ed Martin in 1904, a fighter Jeffries according to the press also KO'd on the way up.

So unless you think a teenager with 4 total fights is worth a title shot, Mcvey at the time would not mean much at all! Jeffries vs McVey in 1903 would not mean much from a result standpoint, however if would mean something to those who look at wins on paper without realizing how young and green he was.

Johnson vs Jeffries in 1905 would add something to Jeffries legacy at the time. Most felt Johnson pre-1905 was not in Fitz or Corbett's class. No less authority that Geroge Siler, the most prominent referee of the times felt Peter Jackson, a fighter Jeffries easily bombed out in three rounds was the best of the African-American fighters. But then again Johnson lost in 1905 to Marvin Hart who was not viewed as a world beater. If Hart beats you, how good were you really?

Johnson lost to Choynski ( KO loss ) , Klondike, ( Ko loss ) and Griffin ( points loss ) and drew 5 other times while Jeffries was the champion from 1899-1904, and everyone knows none of the fighters Johnson lost or drew with were as good as say Jeffries wins at the time over Fitzsimmons, Corbett or Sharkey.

Jeffries KO'd A prime version of Griffin. The Griffin Johnson lost and drew to was past his best.

One of the Johnson's draws during this time was vs the past his prime Mexican Pete Everett. You guessed it, Jeffries KO'd a prime version of Everett in three rounds. Notice a pattern here? The guys Johnson losses to or draws with, Jeffries knocks out.

I'm pretty sure Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in 1904-1905, even you say that!

So I'd say if you examine it closely, it would be a moderate legacy boost ( 1903 and 1905 matches ), however, those who do not examine the conditions and records of the fighters when Jeffries could have fought them might say a significant legacy boast.

If Jeffries beat Johnson in 1910, 6 years removed from the game, 60+ pounds overweight with no warm up fights, it would be a significants legacy boast. No one has done anything like that. Then he would have likely retained a top 5 ranking which was common from him up to the 1960's.

There you have it.
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When Jeffries feasted on the shell of Peter Jackson ,Jackson was 37 years old an alcoholic consumptive who had not fought in 3 years nor won a fight in over 5 years
.
Do you seriously contend that his poor scalp on Jeffries belt means anything?

You say Everett was past prime when he fought Johnson?

He was 26years old!

Don't you get tired of being exposed as a fool?atsch

George Siler is credited by Johnson as having discovered him,Siler recommended him to manager Johnny Connors saying ,"he is a certain future champion".

mcvey · Jun 14, 2016

janitor said: ↑

I think that any potential challenger post 1903, with the exception of Johnson, would have been seen as being significantly weaker than Sharkey, Fitz Ruhlin etc.
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You'd pick post 1903 versions of that trio to beat McVey?
You do know Sharkey retired in1902?
I think McVey beats both Sharkey and Ruhlin in1903.

Senya13 · Jun 15, 2016

mcvey said: ↑

George Siler? Here's a quote for you.
"To my mind Jeffries is today really more afraid of Johnson ,than any other man in the ring" George Siler. Police Gazette Sept 16th 1909 and The Freeman Sept 9th 1905.
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That's not what George Siler said. Sporting editor of Indianapolis Freeman is retelling Siler's statement and adds his own remarks. I have no idea what Police Gazette reported in 1909 though, how is it related to Siler?
And no, Siler wasn't present at Johnson-Hart, for that matter.

Chuck1052 · Jun 15, 2016

Would Jim Jeffries' legacy be enhanced if he fought Jack Johnson and Sam McVey while doing well against both during his prime years? I think it largely depends on Johnson and McVey still going on to have great careers. If they did, I think that Jeff's legacy would be greatly enhanced.

- Chuck Johnston

mcvey · Jun 15, 2016

Senya13 said: ↑

That's not what George Siler said. Sporting editor of Indianapolis Freeman is retelling Siler's statement and adds his own remarks. I have no idea what Police Gazette reported in 1909 though, how is it related to Siler?
And no, Siler wasn't present at Johnson-Hart, for that matter.
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Silers remarks were reported in two papers and I posted them. Proof Siler was not present at the Hart fight please?
The quote which you say Siler did not make in the Freeman was printed in the Police Gazette,that's how its related to Siler.

I should have thought that was self -evident?:think

" Johnsons actions struck me as quite scientific so I requested a Chicago fight manager who was at ringside to take the big black under his managerial wing assuring him he had the makings of a champ."
George Siler." Inside Facts On Pugilism"
page 112 from his book,in which Siler takes credit for discovering Johnson and referring him to Johnny Conners or do you say he didn't make that statement?

Senya13 · Jun 15, 2016

The statement you quoted is what the The Freeman's sporting editor J.L Footslug wrote as his opinion, it's not Siler's words. The Freeman was a colored weekly newspaper out of Indianapolis, it's not to be expected to be objective about Jack Johnson.

Siler is discussing Johnson-Hart bout referring to the (wire) reports he read of the fight, he never gives first-hand opinion about it in his column.

mcvey · Jun 15, 2016

Senya13 said: ↑

The statement you quoted is what the The Freeman's sporting editor J.L Footslug wrote as his opinion, it's not Siler's words. The Freeman was a colored weekly newspaper out of Indianapolis, it's not to be expected to be objective about Jack Johnson.

Siler is discussing Johnson-Hart bout referring to the (wire) reports he read of the fight, he never gives first-hand opinion about it in his column.
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Okay thanks for the info on the Freeman.
What about the quote in the Police Gazette?

And the quote from Siler's book?

Senya13 · Jun 15, 2016

Quote from Siler's book you should ask Adam, whether it's true or not what Siler claims he had done. I don't remember.

The original quote by Siler in his Sunday column:
1905-08-20 The Chicago Sunday Tribune (page II2)

Retired Champion Jim Jeffries evidently has a poor opinion of the fistic qualities of the present crop of heavyweights, judging from the stories attributed to him and sent broadcast from California several days ago. The big fellow, reports state, says that Ruhlin, McCormick, Hart, and Johnson are a bunch of stiffs and that he could trim them, one after the other, as fast as they could be trotted out. That does not speak well for the fighters named, but as they know Jeff can wallop them away for the count in short order they are compelled to take his medicine. The ex-boss walloper talks some of building a huge arena at Arcadia, Cal., and will christen it with a fight between his brother Jack and Marvin Hart, and thereby he hopes to bring the championship back in the family.
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What the Indianapolis newspaper wrote:
1905-09-05 The Freeman (page 7)

SPORT
Edited By J. L. FOOTSLUG
--------
George Siler, in writing of Jeffries opinion on the present heavyweight says that Jeffries thinks that Johnson, Hart, McCormick and Ruhlin are all big chumps and that he could trim them, one after another as fast as they could be trotted out. But did you notice how quickly Jeffries drew the color line when it become the talk that Jack Johnson was about to issue him a challenge. To my mind Jeffries is to day really more afraid of Johnson than any other man in the ring.
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mcvey · Jun 15, 2016

Senya13 said: ↑

Quote from Siler's book you should ask Adam, whether it's true or not what Siler claims he had done. I don't remember.

The original quote by Siler in his Sunday column:
1905-08-20 The Chicago Sunday Tribune (page II2)

What the Indianapolis newspaper wrote:
1905-09-05 The Freeman (page 7)
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I have both Adam's Johnson volumes,and I have a copy of Siler's quotes in my favourites.Johnson himself attributed his early recognition to Siler.

reznick · Jun 15, 2016

janitor said: ↑

Johnson would have been a real game changer, and it might have given Jeffries a case for being the GOAT.

McVea would have been a good win, but just a win over a very good contender at that point.
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Agreed.

A win over prime Johnson would be an astronomical feat.

Jeffries would retire undefeated with one of the sweetest looking resume around.

mcvey · Jun 15, 2016

reznick said: ↑

Agreed.

A win over prime Johnson would be an astronomical feat.

Jeffries would retire undefeated with one of the sweetest looking resume around.
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With all questions about him answered .It would be massive and he would be top 4maybe higher.imo

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