I suppose what I'm asking is, if that version of Sonny had faced anyone else in the division at the time, would we have seen Liston s break down and quiting on his stool? In other words, was it just the actual man he faced that caused that?
It's an interesting question and comes back to the shoulder injury, really. Like Duran against Leoanrd it seem likely that his quitting was as much to do with his being humiliated by "a clown" as it was to do with anything else, but we don't know that. We've seen Vitali Klitschko quit a fight he was winning against an opponent who posed him no physical threat with a similar injury and we just don't know. Doctors attested to the legitimacy of that shoulder injury but doctors are doctors, we just don't know. When Liston won the title, it's pretty clear the crushing disappointment of his reception as champion affected him badly. I'd compare his "landing" as champion to that of Tyson Fury. Got everything he ever wanted, found out he made no difference. Liston was boozing, hard. I suspect he was vulnerable to being taken unexpectedly, but knowing the name of the man who would have done it is very, very difficult. Even boozy Liston crushed Floyd Patterson. Liston is a fascinating and compelling character, a really weird speed-bump on the heavyweight championship highlight. Probably there are few champions post 1960 at any weight where "I don't know" is the most honest answer to so many questions.
I understand he was 32 at the time, but I've also read that he might of even been forty. I still give ali credit for beating him, but I guess this was a guy well past his prime
I just looked at his record on boxrec, very impressive beat wepner when he was 38 if his reported age was correct, maybe was much older. Shame about that second ali fight.
I think he was absolute prime. He just had the misfortune ofsharing the era of the great Clay/Ali. Anyone else Liston destroys for years to come. Smoke beats him finally.
He was past prime and older than what he was listed as. Was nursing a shoulder injury as well but was still a very dangerous boxer for anyone and was the heavyweight champion of the world. Ali is just a bad matchup for him ... He didn't know how to adjust to Ali's movement. Tried to blind Ali meaning he definitely came to win the first fight, despite under training or whatever. But I don't think it would have mattered ... Liston doesn't beat this version of Ali ... He took away his eyesight for two rounds and still couldn't beat Ali.
People at the time said he looked like a million dollars in his previous 2 fights so no one at that time thought he was past his prime.
Pretty much what McGrain said. He was past it but not that much, he was prime in the first Patterson fight and due to his bad reputation he started declining. But then again beating Patterson so easily a second time doesn't mean he was as past it as some claim, yes Patterson was scared to the bone but sheer intimidation doesn't result in such a one sided beating. Also Ali was just a bad match up for him, which made him look even more past it.Also for those mentioning he was more like 40, it doesn't matter, he started boxing late and it showed, the guy was having a hard time against literal nobodies only like 5 years before he crushed Cleveland Williams and did not reach his peak until at least 1959, so even a supposed 35 year Liston was prime.
It’s myth-making to decide he suddenly declined out of his prime after back-to-back first-round KOs of Patterson. He was prime. Ali was just on another level.
It's an hard question in a way because he had such an easy title win, then just as easy defence, followed by the two strange title losses to Ali. I mean he goes from being compared to Louis to a past it old man??
So you belive with no Ali, that he's capable of beating Challengers right up to, at least 1968at least Morlocks?
I think he was slightly past his best years, but still very dangerous and capable of beating pretty much every heavyweight at the time barring Ali. His lack of activity in the ring might have had something to do with how rusty he looked. Going into the first Ali fight, the most recent fight he had which had gone past three rounds was the Machen fight four years earlier. People in Liston's camp basically said he was training for a three round fight.
No, you wouldn't have seen him quit against anyone else. He'd already beaten Patterson (twice), Machen, Folley, Williams ... was he going to quit against Doug Jones or Brian London or Karl Mildenberger? Was Chuvalo going to run him out of the ring? No.
It depends on how old he was, which we don't know, so we don't know. Just because he blasted away Patterson he might have still been over his hill.
Really, the age thing needs to stop. If he was "older" it was like one year older, maybe two. Not a decade older. I know records weren't always great back then, especially when people were born at home and record keepers relied on census numbers in a household to come up with certain dates, and people didn't start school until their parents thought they were ready, etc. For years, my grandma thought she was born in 1916 and found out when she was very old that she was born two years earlier. THAT was jarring to her. Liston didn't look shot against Ali. He fought fine. He just got beat by a much better fighter. That's all. He went back to beating up everyone after he lost to Ali.
