How "Past It '' Was Sonny Liston Defending Against Ali?

Otherwise Liston would have come down the stretch, in the fixed fight? Or what kind of theoretical points are we dissecting here?

 

Personally, I think Liston was hampered more by not preparing well enough and taking Ali lightly. But I don't think that either made the difference.

Perhaps he could have pressed things better in the 5th, but I don't see him finishing Ali. And I don't see him turning the fight around.

 

If it was a very close fight, yes, then I can see some value in dissecting things like recent activity (or the tough fights Ali had had previously), but as it is I have a hard time seeing why so much energy is spent on it. (EDIT: It did get my thinking of starting a thread about Stipe-Ngannou in the MMA forum, though).

Especially if one thinks the fight was fixed.

 

I'm pointing out that these two points .....

[(Almost) everyone expected Liston to make short work of Clay.]
AND
[Liston was under-trained and probably in decline.]

..... are not contradictory.

And nor are ......
[Clay was much much better than everyone realized, and improving, and would have beat ANY version of Liston]
AND
[Liston was probably some way off his best form]

 

I don't think much energy is spent on it.
Unlike Tyson-Douglas, where the most common opinion is that "1988 Tyson destroys Douglas"/"1990 Tyson destroys in rematch", I rarely see many strong opinions that seriously promote Liston as an easy winner against Ali, prime for prime.
It's more along the lines of : "Liston at his absolute best probably would have looked better against Clay/Ali than he did in '64/'65".

 

In general, yes. I think there were a couple in this thread that picked a younger Liston to beat Ali, but it's not nearly as frequent as "Rooney Tyson would destroy Douglas and Holy on the same night"-kind of thing.

 

Thought you might be angling in that direction.

What argument does it weaken, though? You don't think me saying that Liston probably took Ali lightly and didn't train properly kind of disproves the point you're trying to make? What argument would it suit supposedly stonewalling the inactivity thing but saying that Liston probably didn't prepare well?

PS. "Your inability to admit that inactivity is a factor that harms a figher's performance" is a bit of a strawman, since what I said is that I think Liston's activity prior to facing Ali might have been a factor if the fight was tough and evenly contested, but not as it played out.

 

I listed things that are named as factors negatively impacting Liston's performance. Lack of training was one of them, which I agree seems very reasonable. Injury was another that there is reason to claim, so it wasn't necessarily excuses to me and I didn't call them excuses.

My point was rather that there are a lot of things thrown up, for some as a reason to believe that Liston otherwise would beat Ali.

"Sort of claimed"? I named the examples of recent years that sprung to mind. All of which contained lay-offs of a year or more.

And again, I said I don't believe the kind of recent activity Liston had had to be a factor unless it was a tough, tightly contested fight, which it wasn't. Let's get that one right, shall we?

And I think just the same about the upcoming HW title fight in UFC. I that I actually think Stipes' tough recent fights are bigger concern for him than the few number of rds/minutes in the Octagon that Ngannou has had.

This what you wrote (my highlighting):

"More likely perhaps: you feel like conceding the existence of ring rust and the existence of the near-universal opinion in boxing that it exists, is a prevalent factor, is often mentioned as such weakens your arguments around Ali-Liston."

Besides wrongly claiming that I don't acknowledge that ring rust exists (see above) you obviously think I held a certain stance because my arguments were weakened otherwise. You still haven't told me which these arguments, that would be weakened, are.

Can't say we have disagreed on this (depends on what you mean with "often", I guess). Again (hopefully for the last time), I've stated that I believe that in Liston's case it might have made a difference in a tough, competitive 15 rounder, but I don't think it made the difference in the actual fight between Ali and Liston. And you still haven't said what exactly you disagree with about this. You obviously agree that it didn't make the difference in the actual fight...

So, in short, it's kind of hard to know what you're on about.

 

This is turning a bit silly. If inactivity can be a factor has never been the item for discussion. I don't know a soul that would disagree with that it can be, but it of course depends on what kind of inactivity (length of it etc). To some degree it's good since everybody needs a rest now and then, but after a while it gets to be too long. Don't know why you'd believe there have ever been a disagreement on this general principle.

As specifically regarding the number of fights and rds and fights Liston had had in the previous months and years I said that: "it might have made a difference in a tough, competitive 15 rounder, but I don't think it made the difference in the actual fight between Ali and Liston."

You seem to believe it made more of a difference, kind of, at least in the early rds.

As for the early rds for me, I think Liston looked better than ever in the first round in his previous fight. So, no, I don't think that the seven months that passed since then would do much to making him more dull if he trained and prepared right. But I do think that the years that had passed since he had to exert himself over longer distance in an actual fight might have played a part in a longer and tougher fight, as I said.

That's my take. It seems to get you a bit worked up for some reason, but I don't really know why and I don't think we're getting anywhere, so bye for now.

 

Whether one agree's or not it's well worth noting that Emanuel Steward could not pick a winner between Clay/Ali and Liston with both at their best. He also believed by the time he got to the title his best years were behind him and right after he won the title was living the life of a comfortable man drinking and golfing and had lost the edge. From memory Springs T shares much of the same thoughts.

Q: If Sonny Liston had gotten his shot earlier against Floyd Patterson and if he didn’t have Ali coming up, how good could Sonny Liston have been?

ES: Sonny Liston, I watched Sonny Liston when I was a teenager do something that I’ve never seen any heavyweight do—walk through the whole division almost from being the number ten guy all the way up to the champion because he was that devastating like around ’57, and ’58, and ’59. I mean he had unbelievable brutal punching power. He was mean, punched with both hands, and I think that the time that he finally got to the title, I think his best years had gone and right after he won the title he began to live the life of a middle aged wealthy man. He lost the real focus that he had earlier. ’57, ’58, and ’59 he was one of the most vicious machines probably ever in boxing, but after he won the title, from my reports and from what I gather, he started drinking a lot and he was golfing and he just lost that total edge. He was living the life of a comfortable man and then here comes exactly what the computer prints out—the thing in the world for him..

A fast, young fighter, good movement, a solid amateur background, and who had been fighting on a regular basis, so therefore when the match-up came it was just perfect timing for one, terrible timing for another guy who had slipped past his prime—but if they had fought, in like say ’58 or ’59, a prime Sonny Liston and a prime I would still say Cassius Clay or whatever—I don’t know. I don’t know. Sonny at that stage was just such a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the fights he had with Cleveland Williams—oh my God. I don’t know, Sonny might have won if they would have fought at that time.

 

Excellent find! Out of curiosity, how do you think a prime for prime matchup would go for them? I think Ali survives a lot of close scares, and gets off the canvas to win a close but clear UD.