How shitty was Ali's second title reign ! ? !

Bull. Johnson had a draw in one defense, and Louis had close decisions over Godoy and Farr, and a very controversial one over Walcott. Dempsey could (should?) have been disqualified for being hepled back in the ring against Firpo. Marciano had LaStarza, etc (that was no title fight, but which of Ali's title fights were close before Young?).

 

If Louis had taken on the same opponents post WWII that Ali did in his second reign, how would his record have looked?

 

Again, Ali's 2nd reign was nothing to scoff at.............. Some heavy dudes were trying to kill him for Christ sake........... Questionable decisions or not, Ali was NEVER stopped or even decked to the floor in them fights............ Chucky Wepner stepped on Ali's toes to score a bogus knockdown.....

MR.BILL

 

Dempsey and Marciano didn't get any controversial decisions as champions, plain and simple. Debating about a particular incident in a fight that was won by a crushing 2-round KO does not equate to a controversial decision.

 

Well, together they had about half the title fights Ali had, and none of them was champion at the age when Ali got those decisions.

But in Dempsey's case isn't it just a tad more damaging that he ducked the two best contenders and sat on the title for three years making silly movies?

 

To take every close decision the man had and call them questionable smells of agenda to me. IMO the decisions over Jones (especially), Norton (rematch) and Shavers were close but clear. Hell, even Norton and Shavers themselves admit Ali edged those fights.

 

How is that supposed to make Ali's 2nd title reign any "better", or make the decisions he got any less controversial?

Not really, because Ali didn't defend against the best contender of his 2nd reign either, which was Foreman.

 

Every one of those decisions was called questionable even at the time. They weren't simply "close".

 

That you have more close calls and losses in 24 title fights than you have in 6 or 7 is just statistics.

Also Dempsey got soundly beaten in one of his title defenses. Never happened to Ali. So you saying that "other champions were good enough to beat their challengers soundly" doesn't hold for him. It doesn't hold for Louis and Holmes either, who had several close and controversial fights. It doesn't hold for Tyson and Frazier who got their ass handed to them by guys who challenged for their title.

It does hold for Marciano, though, who had a grand total of five defenses, all against guys over 30.

You're not seriously comparing this to Dempsey's long and blatant ducking of Wills and Greb, are you? If so, I won't waste any more time on you.

 

Well, not by two of the guys losing them. And if someone says that Jones deserved the win over Ali he knows nothing about boxing.

Louis' win over Godoy was also called questionable at the time by some.

 

So you forgot about Frazier II? Or you were just busting my chops on that one...

 

Ali only made 10 defenses during his second reign.

Um, OK. Ever hear of Leon Spinks?

Why not? "Long and blatant" etc. is purely your own personal spin on things, and outright ignores some of the facts of the matter.

Good riddance then.

 

Still more than most. Add to that that he was 33-36, took on everyone (something not many champs can claim) except a guy he'd alreday beaten. That he had a couple of close/controversial fights doesn't look that bad to me under these circumstances. I agree with He Grant that he should have turned up in better shape for many of them and been more focussed, though

Yes, who won a split decision over him. Not really beating him "soundly". Not like Dempsey who lost every round when he lost the title and hardly could see because his eyes were closed.

No, it isn't and it doesn't.

Foreman had already been soundly beaten by Ali and was only top contender for about six months. Sure, Ali should have rematched him, or at least met the winner between him and Young, but it doesn't come close to not fighting the top contender, without having defeated him previously, for more or less the entirety of ones reign.

Throw his failure to fight Greb and his voluntary three year inactivity on top of that and you have a a truly bad reign.

You're clueless. I bid good day.

 

Really?? So what was your scorecard for the fight then?

Yes it does. Dempsey tried to make a fight with Wills several times in '22 and early '23, but was first stalled by Wills' team, then thwarted altogether by several commissions. It takes an awful big spin job to distort that into "blatant ducking".

Whatever. Ignoring the facts doesn't make them magically disappear.