How shitty was Ali's second title reign ! ? !

Add Frazier II to that list.

I think that it is high time that someone stopped calling all these fights controversial. I have watched all of them (well, a lengthy part of Ali-Jones) many times. My sincere view is that Ali clearly beat Jones, Norton (in II), Frazier and Shavers in these fights. Norton II was the closest fight but the others were close too. But 'close' and 'controversial' are not the same. To be controversial there must be reasonable doubt as to the validity of someone being declared the winner. No such things happened in these fights. Though his opponents gave him stiff competition, Ali clearly won these fights.

The only fights that can be called controversial are Norton III and the Jimmy Young fight. Here reasonable doubts exist as to whether Ali really won these fights or not. But in both these fights, I feel that more than Ali not being able to win them clearly, Young and Norton did not deserve to be declared the winner.

Please bear with me a moment.

Jimmy Young faced a rather out of shape Ali who was beginning to get old. On top of that Ali seemed to take Jimmy lightly. A big mistake against a quality guy like Young. Jimmy seemed to do very well in the fight. As long as he was making his moves. But as soon as Ali became really aggresive Jimmy short-circuited his moves by the simple expedient of placing his upper body outside the ring. This is almost like remaining in the ring when you are beating up on your opponent but running away outside when your opponent is about to do the same to you. Surely such a fighter does not deserve to be declared the winner.

Now Norton III. Ken Norton's USP was that his style was favourably suited for Muhammad Ali. He had already fought Ali twice before and had a 1-1 record against him. The Ali he was facing for the third time was at the *** end of his career with vastly eroded skills. Norton knew all about Ali who had been much better. Ken was at his peak. Norton should have been able to stamp his superiority over Ali in no uncertain terms and win big here. But he was not able to do so. Or maybe, he was not allowed to do so by a battle scarred ring general who, in spite of being depleted in numbers and firepower, still knew how to end the battle on an indecisive note. Suffice to say that Norton simply did not know how to take it from Ali and Ali knew how to not give it to Norton.

 

Come on the Young fight didn't even look like a sparring session.

 

**** the "Young" fight of '76................ FOLKS! That was my introduction into world class boxing......... "Ali-Young" was the first fight I sat down with the folks and neighbors and watched a pro match for the entire duration of the event........ I became immediately hooked........ It felt like my first piece of *****; something was just so right about it........ Anyway, I recall during the telecast back in '76 that the crowd I was with were uptight that the action was dull and Ali was screwing around too much, but, I didn't care.... You see, I was having fun as it was with the event.......... NOW! I also recall Jimmy Young hanging by the ropes and slipping through the ropes here and there and the fans hated that tactic to slow down the tempo........ In a way, the fight was a circus act of sparring, but at the time, I thought it was great stuff....... I now have a clean copy and I have always felt that Ali edged Young in a lousy fight that made me a true believer............ Peace.....

MR.BILL

 

People harp on that 3rd "Ali-Norton" fight / decision way too much and often........... At first, I gave Ali the nod by a **** hair... Later on, I changed my mind to a draw....... A draw is a fair call............. Norton never was able to cut or drop Ali in all the 39 rds that they fought...... Norton got lucky to clip Ali's jaw with a shot while Ali was gabbing and it popped / cracked his jawbone...... Other than that, Ali took a good rib shot by Norton at Yankee Stadium in around the 5th round that doubled Ali for a brief moment.... No real biggie there............. None of the fights with Norton were all that great in action.............
:bart

MR.BILL

 

I agree with you about the fights, it was quite a boring trilogy. Norton won the 3rd though, no doubt for me.

 

I believe Shavers himself admited he thought he lost.

 

If it weren't for the gap in Ali's career, early 1967 to late 1970, I doubt we would have seen the latter stages on his career. It would have been replaced with three and a half years of young, untouchable, prime Ali.

 

HE Grant is right.

Ali came into the ring in shitty condition and put in lacklustre performances in most of those second-reign fights. Disgraceful really, and he got away with it because he was the hero of television boxing in the 1970s.
Ali fought fighters like Coopman and Dunn and Evangelista and Wepner and he even looked a bit crap in those fights. He lost to the novice Leon Spinks, but gets excused because he was "past his prime", some even acknowledge his awful conditioning and make excuses for him on the strength of that.
Ali became a bit of a circus act, but this didn't happen "years past his prime" or after he was champion. This happened when he held the title, and there's no excuse for it.

Having said all that, The Rumble in The Jungle and The Thrilla In Manila did live up to their billing, and rank as heights in Ali's entire career, so go a long way in smoothing over the rest of Ali's second reign, which was almost entirely farcical and embarrassing.

 

I agree that the young and Norton 3 decisions were questionable,but imo,the Jones and Shavers fights were hard but were clear Ali wins. The Norton 2 fight was anybody's fight coming into the last round,which Muhammad took.