How should we view these fights of jersey joe's?

lufcrazy · Jan 31, 2012

KuRuPT said: ↑

I guess, just as before, we disagree on that word and how it applies. I don't think Walcott showed supremacy when he's only 2-2 against Charles. I don't think knocking somebody out shows anymore supremacy than beating somebody on points virtually every round. Who do you think showed more supremacy... Whitaker over Ramirez or Marciano over Walcott. I don't think KOing somebody is any more impressive than somebody get a clear dominating points decision.

Again though, Yes Louis KO'd walcott in their second fight, which could be viewed as supremacy if you only looked at it on cyber boxing. If you go further, you would realize, that Walcott should've been awarded the first fight (goes directly against supremacy), and was clearly winning the second fight again until he showboated one to many times. Those two factors make it really difficult to use the word supremacy in regards to Louis and Walcott.
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Even giving jersey the benefit of the doubt (can't watch the full fight but judging by the response a robbery call seems fair) jersey wins the first and louis wins the second, but by knocking him out.

that's supremacy in my book.

comparing witaker and rocky doesn't work because it's not using the same circumstances.

if two guys fight each other and split a series, but the victor in the return knocks his opponent out i'd say he's proved supremacy.

KuRuPT · Jan 31, 2012

I don't think a KO is anymore dominating of a victory than a complete points dominations victory. In fact, a KO has many more variables than can make it a lucky shot that has nothing to do with who is the superior fighter. That fight is a great example... during the course of the fight Louis showed NO superiority for the vAST majority of the fight. In fact, he was considerably behind and needed a KO or big rounds to win. He got a KO after Walcott had showboated one to many times. So there can be many more variables of luck involved in KO's when you're clearly being outclassed for the majority of the fight and just land one punch. On the other hand, Pea's domination fo Ramirez or any other one side boxing session don't have those same variables of luck. You just schooled a guy for 12 or 15 rounds without losing one or only losing a couple. To me that is more impressive than losing most of the fight and being taught a boxing lession... only to land one punch a KO the guy.

lufcrazy · Jan 31, 2012

KuRuPT said: ↑

I don't think a KO is anymore dominating of a victory than a complete points dominations victory. In fact, a KO has many more variables than can make it a lucky shot that has nothing to do with who is the superior fighter. That fight is a great example... during the course of the fight Louis showed NO superiority for the vAST majority of the fight. In fact, he was considerably behind and needed a KO or big rounds to win. He got a KO after Walcott had showboated one to many times. So there can be many more variables of luck involved in KO's when you're clearly being outclassed for the majority of the fight and just land one punch. On the other hand, Pea's domination fo Ramirez or any other one side boxing session don't have those same variables of luck. You just schooled a guy for 12 or 15 rounds without losing one or only losing a couple. To me that is more impressive than losing most of the fight and being taught a boxing lession... only to land one punch a KO the guy.
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I disagree with almost everything there. A dominant points win shows a whole lot about a fighter's skillset when things are going right.

A come from behind knockout shows a whole lot more about a fighter's skillset when things are going wrong.

It seems a bit like we're going round in circles here so it might be best agreeing to disagree.

Past his best louis was able to render jersey joe out for ten. I wouldn't want to imagine how much of a beating he'd have given him 8 years earlier.

Conn · Feb 1, 2012

Some people thought Walcott-Louis 1 was a robbery.
Others thought it was a close fight that Walcott let slip away from him by being over-cautious to the point of negativity in too many rounds.
There's no consensus that it was an outrage. I think 2/3 of writers scored it for Walcott, and not all of them thought it was the crime of the century that it went to Louis.

Having not seen it, I don't know which camp I would fall in to.

Anyway, seeing as Louis was clearly past his best, and Walcott is supposedly at his career peak ... to me, the results of the fights show quite a stark gulf in class between the two fighters.
I reckon a few of the guys who Louis fought in 1935 - 1941 would have a great chance of upsetting the Louis of December 1947

lufcrazy · Feb 1, 2012

Conn said: ↑

Some people thought Walcott-Louis 1 was a robbery.
Others thought it was a close fight that Walcott let slip away from him by being over-cautious to the point of negativity in too many rounds.
There's no consensus that it was an outrage. I think 2/3 of writers scored it for Walcott, and not all of them thought it was the crime of the century that it went to Louis.

Having not seen it, I don't know which camp I would fall in to.

Anyway, seeing as Louis was clearly past his best, and Walcott is supposedly at his career peak ... to me, the results of the fights show quite a stark gulf in class between the two fighters.
I reckon a few of the guys who Louis fought in 1935 - 1941 would have a great chance of upsetting the Louis of December 1947
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I'm not sure just anyone would have beaten him but guys like bivins, charles and ray would have a great chance for the upset.

frankenfrank · Feb 10, 2012

KuRuPT made lufcrazy seem reasonable in this thread , how bad :-( .
And Cream vs Louis #1 was a bad blatant robbery .

lufcrazy · Feb 10, 2012

frankenfrank said: ↑

KuRuPT made lufcrazy seem reasonable in this thread , how bad :-( .
And Cream vs Louis #1 was a bad blatant robbery .
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I'm always reasonable babe.

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