At his best, Dempsey could KO punch, could beat people up, had good whiskers, could fight hurt if necessary, was quick on his feet, had good gas and was relentless.
He trained his first world champion when he was 22 or 23. He saw Dempsey from ringside in 1916. He grew up in Harlem and was in the midst of boxing gyms from a very young age, and at the boxing clubs, and working corners. So, yeah, I "guess" he'd seen hundreds of fights by the time he was 20. He wasn't "a kid" when Dempsey was champion. He was a young man. There is no doubt that he was a Dempsey fan. This is based on your own guess work, surely. I'm sure you haven't even seen film of a prime Wills. You know less about it than Arcel. Yet you may still be right. This can be said about a lot of great fighters.
1. That's all fine, my initial question was how much of Wills and Dempsey had he actually seen. So he saw Dempsey from 30 rows back in a smokey environment with the crowd screaming and I'm supposed to see this as a vast insight? As a trainer in his 20s he will have been still learning on the job 2. No, it's based on looking on the records and seeing Wills dominated 2 of Dempsey's best opponents and his wins and dominance are a couple of levels above anyone Dempsey had beaten 3. Indeed but they usually get stick for it. Was Arcel aware that Dempsey was fighting a lower level of opposition when he made his prediction?
Blaming Jack for the Wills fight not coming off isn't rational. Even Harry Wills himself didn't hold Jack accountable for that - here are two documented sources. From the Biography of Harry Wills: Wills retired in 1932 and settled down with his wife Sarah, whom he met on a church outing the first weekend he arrived in New York. He wasn't bitter, he said, and as he thought back on it, he never blamed Dempsey for not fighting him. It was Kearns and Rickard, he said, and probably the times. From the Associated press Dec 22, 1958 Wills fought more than 100 times in a 21 year career that started in 1911 in his home town, New Orleans. But he never did get to fight Dempsey for the title. Once contracts were signed but Dempsey's lawyers forfeited his guarantee and Wills collected the $50,000. Wills said later the Dempsey fight never came off because of the racial issue at the time. "It wasn't Jack's fault," he commented.
Again, it's not a matter of blaming Dempsey, it's a matter that he hasn't earned the credit to be called the best of his era and that he didn't fight the best He certainly should shoulder blame for not fighting Harry Greb who dominated 3 of his title opponents in Gibbons, Miske and Brennan. Although maybe that was his managers fault, who knows Wills arguably achieved more than Dempsey, maybe Wills was better? Maybe Greb would have beat Dempsey? We'll never know
Regardless, I think that in the harshest possible light it is posisble to hold Dempsey responsible. Just as Mayweather could unquesionably have made the fight with Pacquiao in 2009 and Pacquiao could have made it with Mayweather in 2011 (or whatever) I reckon Dempsey could have forced the fight with Wills had he been determined. It's just a question of degrees really.
Didn't help Battling Levinski in the slightest. He was at his peak, and the reigning LWH Champion of the World. Bat had dealt with Dillon, the pocket Mauler, numerous times, and only had to last six rounds to get to the final bell with the soon to be HW King in Philly. Manassa Jack crushed him in three. In the first nearly 20 years and 280 bouts of his career, Barney Williams was stopped exactly twice. He's been accused of taking a dive in ceding the LHW Title to Carp in October 1920 at Jersey City as a build-up to Dempsey-Carpentier there the following year, which would make Dempsey KO 3 Levinski a unique outcome indeed. Battling Levinski's vaunted jabs and footwork should have at least gotten him to the final bell of a six rounder if that indeed was all that was necessary to have the Mauler's number. We don't have film of this event, but that's the bout to seek source material ringside eyewitness reporting of, before reflexively concluding that putting a great jab in his face was all that was needed to stymie him. In November 1918, that clearly wasn't even remotely adequate.
I'll make some points, then reply to them on behalf of the Dempsey fanclub, derp derpstock, Janitard, CockyShitnose, Legend Y(chromosone), Duodickinhim, she grant, etc.. 1) Looks like **** on film. - Poor quality cameras 2) Relatively poor resume for a 'great' heavyweight. - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47fEXGabaY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47fEXGabaY[/ame] 3) Of his 3 best challengers, he never met two (Greb and Wills) and was easily outboxed twice by the third (Tunney) - Greb too small but he fought his leftovers, signed for Wills so we'll count that as a probable win, was shot to **** for Tunney 4) Knocked out in 10 seconds by a journeyman with a losing record (Jim Flynn) - Fix! 5) Outboxed by a morbidly obese ex flyweight during his prime years (Willie Meehan) - Fat Willie is the king of 4 rounders and would school anyone 6) Drew the colour line - Rickard held the pen and you're a reverse racist
Overrated by some experts, writers who put him at first at HW for example....but then he became very underrated by many (at least here in Classic).... To me, he was a H2H force......
:rofl:rofl:rofl:wall:rofl:rofl:desk:desk:rofl:rofl Oh, Christ! I just sprayed coffee all over my screen and keyboard, and fell sideways onto the floor hittin' me head! (Can't post again until I clean it up, which I can't do until the tears of laughter stop rollin' outta me eyes so I can see.) They're knockin' on my door, wondering why I'm laughin' so hard! (Happy post 6,700 to me! I finally qualified for name calling after over five years of futility!)
Impossible to overrate. Grantland Rice and William Muldoon conspired to save the essence from his bedsheets and sold it to the best trainers of the day. Charges would be instructed to chew the fabric and spit out the cloth materials lest they acquire superfluous flesh that could not be removed by hearty rubbing. Would they do this if he were not the best ever seen?
Is Burt actually old or is he a teenager? I read a post where he claims to be an 18 year old boy. I'm not even trolling.
