How washed up was Jim Jeffries

This has long been proven to be total bull**** Johnson gave Langford what Sam described as the only real hiding he ever took, he dropped him twice for long counts, broke his nose and, cut him around the eyes he then eased up on him.
Reports of the fight are readliy available.
Johnson lost to Choynski in1901 that is 4 years before Jeffries retired, meanwhile Johnson had beaten Denver Ed Martin a couple of times,FrankChilds,Joe Butler,GeorgeGardner,Sam McVeyx3,Joe Jeannette a couple of times,Sandy Ferguson numerous times,Young Peter Jackson,who would stop Langford in 5rds in his next fight, Black Bill a few times,Fred Russell,JimJeffords.and Jack Munroe. Johnson deserved a shot .Who had a better resume?

 

I agree with this. But, apparently it wasnt the word around town, back in the day. Blame chinese whispers, managerial connections or whatever, it couldnt have helped could it.

I think you misunderstand the point. No one necessaarily had a better resume. But, his resume at the time, was not enough for anyone to think that he was going to beat Jeffries. For a start, you cannot give a fight to Johnoson before Hart. Whether you agree with the decision or not, that is just wrong. And no one thinks that Hart was in Jeffries league, probably because he wasnt. If Johnson had beaten hart (officially), he would have been comfortably the no 1 contender, but there would have been no reason to think that he would have much of a chance against Jeffries. Like when Chris Byrd was the no 1 contender near when Lennox retired (and/or took his shot against Vitali), there was no standout demand for Jeffries to fight Johnson. In fact, this was a very similar situation to Lewis not fighting Byrd, with the exception that Byrd didnt go on to be anywhere near as good as Johnson.

 

What he was saying was that the public BELIEVED Langford had given Johnson a rough way to go, which is true. For years and years and years the story had been bandied about that Langford made a great showing against Johnson. It wasnt true but that was the public's perception.

And yes, Johnson's resume is good in 1905 (although a lot of the people you name there werent anything special), but then he fought an eliminator with Marvin Hart, which has been discussed ad naseum on here, and whether you believe he deserved to lose or not (and there is plenty to suggest he did) it was a dismal fight with Johnson making a very tepid showing for a guy who was pounding his chest for a title shot.

The public was so dissenterested in Johnson and Hart that there simply was no market for a fight between Jeffries and either of the two. A lot of revisionist historians would like us to believe that Jeffries was a rabid racist who was scared to death of Johnson and so he retired, only to return just as he had left in all of his physical glory only to be defeated (and by extension suffer the defeat of racism as well) but unfortunately thats not the case.

Johnson had a very poor reputation, he was seen as doing just enough to win in several of his fights. Its no coincidence that the greatest fight of the age was considered to be Jeffries-Sharkey 2 in which both men gave a blood and guts performance. People didnt want to see Johnson laying back and waiting while smiling and talking trash. Some today might find that "skillful" or "humorous" or even an "exhibition of dominance" but the vast majority of people in that era did not.

Jeffries retired as the biggest thing in the sport with nowhere else to go. In the meantime he lived the good life, got fat, and enjoyed his celebrity. Six years later, when it became apparent that there was no legitimate HW who could match Johnson Jeffries was coaxed out of retirement with a boatload of money.

Now, whether you choose to believe that he only ever gained 58 pounds in his retirement (which is pretty obviously a low figure based on photos of him), is neither here nor there because he was A. NEVER going to get into the kind of shape needed to make a good showing at 35, after 6 years away from the ring, and after having been fat as a pig, and B. Even if he could have gotten into fighting trim his heart wasnt in it.

 

good post klomp

 

That's exactly the package Ken Burns wrapped it all in with a pretty bow in his "Unforgivable Blackness". Good post!

 

I've nothing to disgree with in your post.
Johnson had an opportunity to present Jeffries with a " fait accompli" when he fought Hart ,he failed to close the show and provided Jeffries with an excuse not to fight him. There were newspaper reporters calling for a Johnson /Jeffries fight ,so to suggest that Johnson was, " off the radar "at this point is not accurate ,whatever Jeffries may have said.
Johnson was an underwhelming performer,he was lazy and did just enough to win [ in Hart's case Creggains decided it wasn't enough , many disagreed.]

Add the fact that Johnson was black and there was no reason for white promoters,or the predominantly white audiences, to push his claims for a title shot. Johnson had the best record of the challengers at the time ,the Hart fight not withstanding, that is my contention. Hart had beaten who ? A very disputed dec over Johnson, a draw and a loss with George Gardner ,Johnson had outclassed Gardner 3 years earlier ,dropping him twice.
Hart had a win and a draw with Gus Ruhlin who at 36 was nearing the end,a win over Sandy Ferguson,whom Johnson had beaten allways from Sunday many times,that's it.
There was no call for a Jeffries/ Hart fight ,but there was interest in a Jeffries /Johnson fight .
I believe the stumbling block was not Johnson's alleged lack of marketability, but his colour.
Jeffries was happy to defend against a singularily underwhelming challenger in Munroe yet balked at Johnson because his credentials as a challenger were not good enough?:huh
The Munroe defence was post poned twice by the way, because of lack of public interest. Jeffries retired after it, giving the reason there were no financially viable challengers out there, [the Munroe receipts were dissapointing ,not surprising really. ]

Jeffries was half right there were no viable White challengers out there but ,there was Johnson whose resume was the best of any active heavyweight in 1905. You say some of the names I mentioned were nothing special? They were still men that Hart managed to give a miss to.
I do not choose to believe Jeffries only gained 58lbs in his retirement.
I choose to believe that he lost 58 lbs in the 16 months prior to the fight with Johnson. Jeffries own words confirm this, in the interview referred to previously..
I seriously doubt that Jeffries was ever physically afraid of any man.
I do believe he was mortally afraid of losing his title to a black man however,and made sure that it could never happen.
The bull**** that surrounds the Langford fight ,some of which is still trumpeted by Johnson's resident hater Mendacity,originated from the mouth of Joe Woodman, Langford's manager.
In later years Johnson became irritated by this enough to write an article in the Ring magazine laying out just how the fight had gone ,he cited three prominent journalists who were still around ,and had been ringside witrnesses to the fight as back up for his claim.
Fleischer was prompted by the response he received to interview Woodman who confessed in print that it was entirely fabrication on his part, this was confirmed by Langford himself who had no reason to do Johnson any favours as he hated his guts.

 

You cannot give a title shot to Johnson before Hart?
But you can give one to Jack Munroe before either of them? In fact , you can ignore both of their claims and fight a no hoper instead?

Hart was perceived as not in Jefffries league true, that was not the case regarding Johnson though ,as newspapers calling for a Johnson title shot prove.

Ever see a newpaper report arguing Hart's case for a shot at Jeffries?

 

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ight&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

Well it certainly wasnt Al Kaufman that wanted a shot at Jeffries!

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...es+&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=10

And Philadelphia Jack O Brien did not seem to keen to challenge Jeffries either.

It seems there was no love lost between Hart and Jeffries.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ies+&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=5

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ies+&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=9

That is a short one, but it gives an indication of how far below Jeffries class Hart (and by inclination JOhnson) was at the time. Hart ready to commit suicide, lol.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ies+&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=4

And I am pretty sure i have a decent idea what this cryptic clue means!


http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ies+&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=6


And that one was totally off topic, but i am sure that Mendoza will enjoy fighting over this managers opinion of Johnson.

 

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...ers&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=11

Not sure if i should have posted this one, for fear of starting an ESB riot, but there is a pretty good fight report round by round. Seems to indicate a close fight after 10 and even 12 before Jeffries tired. Also interesting that Jeffries drew first Blood in the fight!

But back to the original topic, here is what Sharkey thought of the chances of himself, Corbett and others against Jeffries>
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...gers&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=7

forget ducking johnson, maybe Jeffries also ducked Barbados Joe Walcott!

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2&index=14

 

I think I posted enough fight reports to refute that the fight was close in any way.Rickard, the referee said Johnson hit Jeffries whenever he wanted to.
Jeffries reopened a cut on Johnson's lip caused by a butt from a sparring partner, if you want to clutch at that as some sort of victory ,be my guest.

 

No, Just thought it was a good read and it was interesting that the article next to it seemed to be quite pro Johnson. One day, I will get to see the fight in its entirety and who knows some day someone might even put it up on youtube for everyone to see. I am actually surprised someone hasnt already, given the controversy on here. it would be the ultimate final say for whichever way the fight went. Obviously it is rarer than i would have thought.

Either way, it is agreed that Johnson won the fight comfortably by all parties, including Jeffries.

 

The whole fight doesnt exist

 

Its certainly one fight that was never going to be re-enacted,at least ,not by the original principals.

 

Not all parties, there is one on this forum who states it was pretty close up to gone halfway.atsch