How would Ali be ranked if he were only judged on his 1st career?

Pardon my friend, I'd like to add Holyfield in there.

 

Yeah, but instead of admitting how big a gulf that fact suggests posters here are more likely to state that it was even on the cards after six rounds, not even mentioning that this was the only round that Liston clearly won. There certainly is some reluctance in some quarters to give Ali his fair due for this win.

 

Whilst I dont have Holyfield in my top 10, as I value dominating an era very highly, your point is well made, in the sense that in reality we have Ali and Louis way ahead of #3, with then around a dozen competing for the slots from #3 and down, if Ali had retired at 29-0, we would have Louis way ahead of everyone else and then Ali would be somewhere at the front of the chasing pack, alongside Holmes and Lewis, though different people would place him anywhere from #2 all the way down to about #15, depending on personal preference.

 

I find it pretty hard to swallow that Liston couldn’t KO him when he was blind. In his last fight Henry Cooper had him on ***** Street with a single punch.

I don’t discredit the win because there’s no hard evidence it wasn’t on the level, but it smells.

 

I agree with your point in principle until you throw in the blind factor. I do believe Liston’s shoulder was legitimately injured, so that helps Ali’s cause, & of course what he goes on to become as a fighter adds immensely to the believability. Hell of a difference between what Cooper could do to you & what even a less than 100% Liston could, though.

I guess really what I’m saying is I wouldn’t be shocked if something was up, especially with Liston’s mob connections & the violent NOI on the scene. I do take it as a fair victory as it stands.

 

This is why I hate fighters who retire undefeated….Andre Ward …Joe Calzaghe..Sven Ottke etc

 

Just on the first fight at least, Liston had very few actual rounds in the bag over the preceding several years.

Like Foreman leading into Zaire, Liston’s power shortened up his fights considerably. Lack of match fitness for fights going 3-4 rounds plus.

Liston was also relatively heavy at 218 lbs, his weight having slowly crept up over the 2, ridiculously easy Patterson fights and then a further jump of several more lbs by the time of the Ali fight.

Sonny’s best weight was 212 lbs but he was 6 lbs heavier at 218 lbs in Miami. So, I see a complacent, undertrained and somewhat old Liston in there against Ali in ‘64.

Look to the Liston of earlier years, particularly the Williams fights and including his 12 rounder vs Machen also. He was that much faster, more mobile and defensively adept.

That’s no indictment on Ali’s victory over Sonny at all. It’s just to highlight what a beast Liston actually was in his prime - he was certainly still a force to be reckoned with in 64, and Ali’s performance was still brilliant and not tainted at all, imo.

 

In terms of skill, athleticism etc., 60s Ali already had all his ducks well and truly lined up.

However, the true extent of his durability was an unknown variable - due to the very fact of his far and away superiority over the rest of the field.

So that left the question open as to how Ali would react IF he was placed under heavy duress and hurt repeatedly.

No matter how good one’s opposition is in their own time, when you hypothetically call in the ATGs of both past and present for H2H match ups, you’re summoning the greatest competition possible.

A breadth and depth of competition that no fighter ever dealt with during their actual careers.

So, while no one really reached and hurt prime Ali, one might reason that, say a Joe Louis, could at least certainly turn that trick.

As to what might happen then, well, no one knew for sure based on 60s Ali not being so severely tested.

What did Ali prove more than anything in his 2nd career? Imo, it was the durability that was hitherto unknown but, by then, heavily proven, recognised and applauded.

Not necessarily part of rating a fighter, but Ali’s following swelled quickly after the FOTC, with him being hugely credited for his insane display of toughness - albeit in the process of losing.

Ironically, being too good can be a catch 22 in so far as measuring durability.

60s Ali was simply too good for that metric to be firmed up on.

With the exile and some deteriorations, Ali was placed into a position of necessity to prove exactly how tough he was.

Imo, the material proof Ali did provide counts for a hell of lot when considering him in H2H match ups in which one might suspect that the opponent in question has the ability to hang a few good ones on him.

Even given his being clocked by some of boxing’s best, we know Ali ain’t going nowhere and he certainly wouldn’t be folding like a cheap suit.

I do believe 60s Ali already had the durability and heart he later upheld but it simply wasn’t peeled back to full effect during his first reign.

 

He’d still be an easy top ten but not the GOAT given that many of his best wins came in his second career

 

Right.

That Cooper knock down truły came out of the blue and should be taken just like a weird ocurrence.

1) Ali was dominating quite easily, Cooper was bloodied and hurt and most probably a stoppage was coming.

2) Ali was feeling so comfortable that he started showboating, taunting Cooper and letting his guard down... but as it is said "play stupid games..."

3) Athough Cooper was vastly inferior to Ali, he had a wrecking ball of a hook and knew how to use it. He caught Ali with perfect timing and placing. Any other fighter than Ali and the fight ends then and there. In his bio Cooper said he couldn't believe how Ali managed to get up.

Ali got caught, recovered, and went to beat Cooper, stopping him in just five rounds.
Nothing to see here. Let's move on.

 

I think, with only a first career, Muhammad Ali should still be in the GOAT conversation, especially among those who look to boxing films as the ultimate way to evaluate a boxer. In his first career, Muhammad Ali looks pretty darn great on film! His undefeated record from that period looks pretty darn great, too. I have Joe Louis as my number one all time Heavyweight and place Muhammad Ali at number two. If all I had was his first career, I am not sure that would change. If it did, it would not be by much.

 

I think these points on Liston probably are fairly valid, but what's missing is that this wasn't the best version of Ali either.

I think even the rematch version seems considerably more mature, both physically and how he carried himself. And he would continue to improve throughout his first reign imo.