How would Ali be ranked if he were only judged on his 1st career?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by NewChallenger, Feb 24, 2024.


  1. NewChallenger

    NewChallenger Member Full Member

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    I think 60s Ali didn't want to find out that he could take a punch. And then in the 70s he found out and I believe that a part of him went "I can take a punch so I'm not gonna move"
     
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  2. NewChallenger

    NewChallenger Member Full Member

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    We never got to see Prime Ali, Prime Ali would have been him during his exile. Prime Ali now is just defined as everything that happened before Exile
     
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  3. NewChallenger

    NewChallenger Member Full Member

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    The only difference is that his 2nd career pretty much now has made it undebetable as pretty much everyone in the boxing world agrees he is the best Heavyweight ever.

    There is a case to be made for Louis, and those who don't think Ali was nr.1 will say Louis is Nr.1. They usually are bouncing around in the top 3. But to me, it is all about who you beat. Louis had 25 or something defenses, that is commendable, but Ali's competition was absoloutely murderous
     
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  4. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    I’ve said this before (just noting same to assure that it’s not just a convenient thought for the sake of the argument) that I rate Ali’s Miami performance right up there with his best.

    He may not have quite hit his substantive prime but it was still the most adrenaline fuelled performance I’ve ever seen from him.

    He also boxed more closely to conventional than he did in any other fight in the 60s.

    It was the one fight in which we saw Ali being the most emotionally reactive he ever was in the lead up to any fight.

    I think all that was borne out of utmost respect for Liston - and a good dose of healthy fear converted into practically applied, manic energy.

    Sonny was a bad man, and Ali knew it. His perpetual motion for the first 4 rounds kept him out of harms way. That kept Ali safe, unlike several of Liston’s opponents in more recent years.

    Tbh, by the time of the rematch, it was Sonny who, just imo, appeared that much slower and lethargic than he even did in Miami.

    Post 64, Liston began to slow down appreciably - but his power of punch and sound technique allowed him to remain viable for several years longer.

    I will grant that Ali later appeared more aesthetic in his movements but I think it’s arguable that he was any less effective in Miami than he was in later fights.

    Ali didn’t muck around too much if at all with Liston and there was good reason for that
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2024
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  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I have no doubt that Ali kept developing, as you would at 22 having your 20th pro fight. And I think that is also clear on film.

    The discussion tends to be too foucussed on finding excuses for Liston imo.
     
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  6. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    He didn’t want to find out and he had the abilities not to have to find out.

    Post exile he couldn’t stay out of harms way like he used to but I agree that he also, in part, chose to weigh anchor at times and fight it out or try and defend himself while remaining more static than he used to be.

    He obviously knew that likely meant taking more punishment - a contingency he had been preparing for, in sparring for years - even going all the way back to the rematch with Liston.
     
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  7. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    As I said Boke, I think Miami is one of Ali’s best performances as per the reasons I outlined.

    Obviously, I personally think that is clear on film also.

    I don’t see any excuses for Liston. It’s a realistic appraisal to consider and factor his age, complacency, relative inactivity and lack of preparedness as at the time.

    The Liston of 64 was obviously somewhat removed from the Liston of 1960. And the Liston of post 64 was obviously that much more removed from the Liston of Miami.

    Including Miami and post, Liston could be seen to visibly tire around the 6-7 round mark. If he hadn’t seen an opponent off by then it was approaching a risky point of the fight for Sonny - and we saw how that played out against Leotis Martin.

    Even in fights he won, Liston was beginning to huff and puff as at the stoppages of Henry Clark and later, George Johnson, both fights ending in just the 7th round.

    1960 A seriously intended and properly trained Sonny (at an optimal 212 lbs) proved he could go 12 rounds easily - even against a highly mobile and defensive fighter like Machen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2024
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  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Just as its's reasonable that Liston was ageing it's just as reasonable that Ali was maturing (a fact that for example Dundee also has testified to). But the former is much more highlighted than the latter.

    I personally think he looked better and more mature in his movements in later fights. The rematch for one.

    And the Machen fight was slower paced, where Machen mainly tried to survive and fought with an injured arm. Ali rocked Liston a couple of times and Liston responded with throwing everything he had at him, at least in the third. He also went on an intense offensive in the fifth, which naturally made him more tired in the sixth. But I think he was more mentally beaten than physically exhausted, though.

    So I don't think the fights are that good a comparison. Its's like Tyson fans use the Smith and Tucker fights to point out that he could do 12 just fine and that his exhaustion against Douglas and Holy showed just how poor shape he was in. But its's a different thing fighting someone who just try to survive compared to someone who is beating on you.

    But sure, some ageing likely took place between '60 and '64.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2024
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  9. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    But there are all the other features that I mentioned that contributed to the version Liston that turned up in Miami - not just ageing, which was no mean component in itself and not easily dismissed.

    But I do agree that a beat down can deplete the stamina - which is something I’ve argued for before on behalf of Ali when he beat Foreman. George’s fatiguing wasn’t just inherent - he was getting belted hard and often and that had to contribute to the draining of his tank.

    And I agree the beat down Douglas put on Mike had to have taken from his gas tank - and with that, the way Mike lasted and fought back at times defied the alleged degree of his poor conditioning.

    But then Tokyo Mike was still only 23 yo at the time - Miami Liston was at least 34 yo imo, but I think he might’ve been more like 36 yo or so. Many have guessed him to be even older than that.

    Liston also incurred an injury during the fight - a significant injury verified by multiple doctors after the fight.

    If you watch Ali vs Cooper 63 as compared to their rematch, save for Ali fooling around and fighting to prediction in their first fight (which lend to the KD he suffered), there’s not a lot of difference between the two fights, imo.

    Ali’s poster/pinnacle fight is often identified as his match vs Williams but it was still an impaired Williams who provided much less resistance than was even put up by 64 Liston - who would not be seen off as easily as Williams was - so the perception of Ali’s “improvements” are still relative.

    As to Liston vs Machen, Liston was chasing and tracking down Machen plenty enough and did same for 12 rounds.

    Machen floated a few excuses for his performance - and that included his later “band wagon jump”, claiming that “he too” was blinded by Liston - a claim that only saw the light of day, 4 years after the fact of the fight - with no visual evidence to back up that claim.

    A 218 lb, relatively inactive, ageing and overconfident Liston clearly didn’t train for the potential of a full 12 rounds vs Ali - and his stamina at its full potential was likely reduced anyway due to age.
     
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