How would Ali Frazier III have turned out if Ali was as well conditioned as he was in Zaire?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019.


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  1. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I'm going with a stoppage win for Ali a couple of rounds earlier (maybe round 11 or 12) but with Ali tired but definitely fresher than he was when Futch pulled Frazier out of the fight.
     
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
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  2. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    Yeah, Ali vs old Joe the punching bag. Why not "Zaire Ali" vs "FOTC Frazier", or at least vs "Quarry 2 Frazier"...? You wanna hypothetically stack the deck for Ali. Remember that Ali was admittedly "near death" vs Frazier, whereas he only needed 8 rounds vs a stamlna deficient, pooped out Foreman. Manilla was a "fight to the finish"and Ali was lucky to have just barely outlasted Joe Frazier.
     
    red cobra, Sep 5, 2019
    red cobra, Sep 5, 2019
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  3. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I never said Frazier was an old punching bag but it's widely acknowledged that he trained harder than Ali did for their third fight, so it's obvious that Ali would have benefitted from being in better condition.
     
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
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  4. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali was in better shape and ultra sharp for Frazier in Manila and he did not contend with a overly padded canvas which hindered his style and gameplan.
     
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
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  5. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It’s a complete fallacy that Ali trained poorly for Frazier in 75. Ali was in tremendous shape. One of his first statements once the fight was stopped was “if I was not in such great shape I definitely would have lost”.
     
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
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  6. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Actually, Ali didn't quite say that. He said that he was in condition, he didn't say he was in 'such great shape'. There is a difference.

    Ferdie Pacheco said Ali was not as well- prepared as he was in Zaire, Norton said during the fight that Frazier was in better condition than Ali.
    And Ali clearly looked fitter in Zaire than he did in Manila.
     
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
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  7. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Check again. Ali stated “if I was not in such great shape I would have definitely lost”.

    First rule..Don’t believe a word Pacheco ever wrote. He also stated he saw Jess Willard’s Xrays from after he fought Dempsey.

    Ali himself rated his performance a 4.5 out of 5 vs Frazier. Only 3 out of 5 for Foreman.
     
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
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  8. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Edit. Yes he used the word “condition” but the word is interchangeable with “shape” within that sentence without any loss of meaning.

    Ali was greatly hindered in his fight with Foreman which caused him to alter his fight plan. He had no such hinderances in Manilla.

    Again Ali rated his performance much higher vs Frazier(3) than with Foreman.
     
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
    HOUDINI, Sep 5, 2019
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  9. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    He did not say 'in such great shape' or 'in such great condition'. He said 'in condition.'
    There is a difference and Ali was more gracious to his opponents after he had beaten him than before the fight - he said Richard Dunn was a real contender after their fight!

    Even if Ali thought his performance in Manila was better than in Zaire (which I disagree with), it doesn't alter the fact that he would have performed better still if he was in better condition.
     
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
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  10. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't know what Pacheco said about Willard, I've never heard that before. But as he was Ali's doctor and the only person who had the integrity to quit Ali's camp in protest rather than stay on for the money, then what he says is good enough for me.

    There is still Norton's observation during the fight and the fact that Ali clearly looked fitter and sharper in Zaire.
     
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
    DavidC77, Sep 5, 2019
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  11. Titan1

    Titan1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali would win by 11th round stoppage, with a knockdown.
     
    Titan1, Jan 21, 2021
    Titan1, Jan 21, 2021
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  12. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think it was after the second Ken Norton fight when Muhammad made that comment about his shape.
     
    Stevie G, Jan 22, 2021
    Stevie G, Jan 22, 2021
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  13. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Muhammad was in pretty good shape for Manila. Not in the TOP condition that he was in for the Zaire battle or the Frazier II and Norton II ones but still very good. He'd already had three fights by the time '75 was only half over so he never really had time to get OUT of shape.
     
    Stevie G, Jan 22, 2021
    Stevie G, Jan 22, 2021
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  14. El Gallo Negro

    El Gallo Negro Active Member banned Full Member

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    I've often wondered how Thrilla might have gone had Clay been using the weight cutting PEDs he used against Holmes. Hell, may be did for all we know, it's not like he had to subject to testing.
    But to answer your questions, I will pick Clay by stoppage. He held every physical advantage over Frazier already
     
    El Gallo Negro, Jan 22, 2021
    El Gallo Negro, Jan 22, 2021
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  15. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Um why do you still refer to Ali as Clay? He hadn't gone by the surname of Clay for ten years at this point!
     
    swagdelfadeel, Jan 22, 2021
    swagdelfadeel, Jan 22, 2021
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