How would Ali have done if he'd tried to be a puncher?

He’d have to be more flat footed and in the process compromise too many of his other good qualities. He did have a great chin and was a decent sized heavy for his own time so if he learned to punch he’d probably have some success but maybe not as much as a boxer

 

Planting his feet would allow him to punch harder than he did in his career, however he would have gotten hit more and I cant see him ever being a true banger, his speed was unreal his power so-so. Hed also need to learn to throw a left hook to the body a punch Angelo Dundee admitted Ali couldnt throw, plus he would need to start punching to the body something he rarely did.

 

Imagine for a moment that your aunty - like your uncle - had nuts. She'd in fact be your uncle.

Your thread is essentially ' What would Ali have been like if he'd been totally different?'. I know you're trying to get us to think outside the envelope but that's a lot of leeway for discussion.

Nonetheless, here's my starter for ten. I think he'd have worn black trunks and boots.

 

Great question.

I think Ali’s ability to punch hard (as actually demonstrated) was a bit underrated since it was held in potential far more often than it was put into practice. Due to his overall style, he simply wasn’t ideally set for same very often nor did he have the intent. It rings loud to me that even Liston noted that Ali could punch hard. Cus D’Amato also said to Ali (AKA Cassius Clay) that people didn’t realise that he (Ali) could still hit very hard even though Ali was not always set to punch..

At 214 1/2 lb v Chuvalo in the 1960s, Ali’s punches were clearly hard shots but it was Chuvalo taking them, after all. Also, I don’t think George was completely impervious to same - he “felt” a number of those shots - several of which appeared to physically shift him in whole body terms.

Conversely, Ali himself said he was never a big puncher - as if an inherent fact - not a stylistic by product. When Ali rolled Foreman, I think had a new found perspective re his power - perhaps thinking it was something developed with age, greater weight and increasingly less mobility.

Several fights followed, some with Ali being heard - “I’m hitt’n’ haard” - as if Ali was purposing himself to punch harder. I really think Ali thought he’d take out Frazier in 4-5 rds and he was laying some power shots (relative to Ali himself) on Joe which clearly shook Frazier up but still didn’t yield the KD or KO Ali was clearly seeking. In the Norton rubber, Ali also appeared to be punching with the intent for greater power - at least early in the fight.

I think at the least, an older Ali would’ve preferred better power and consequently shorter fights than to have had to fight the full 15 rds or greater part thereof.

There’s also Ali’s brittle hands which might impede any substantive efforts to become more puncher than boxer.

Obviously, with all the relevant data at hand we could calculate the science behind the power of one puncher to another but as it stands, there are numerous hidden variables so it’s simply put to down to a “gift” or something some fighters are born with.

Looking at Ali physically, there was no reason to suspect that he couldn’t punch hard or very hard. Perhaps Ali learned early that even when well set, he didn’t have the natural punch to warrant his accenting on same.

But then again, even flat footed, Ali didn’t appear to turning his hips and putting his shoulder and body weight into shots - so I see room for greater power via modified punching technique but greater compromise in terms of defence of course. There’s also the option of considerate, specifically purposed weight training for extra muscle and power. As good as Ali’s physique was naturally, he was the guy you point to and confidently assume he had never lifted weights - or at least not in any meaningful way over the longer term.

I think the Ali we got was probably the best Ali in net terms - something I think Ali knew all too well himself.

EDIT: PS - Ali v Chuvalo II is a good example of Ali punching harder, with intent, throughout a fight than we are normally accustomed to seeing - I think an older Chuvalo was feeling the shots that bit more again - though Foreman had already monstered George to a TKO a few years prior.

 

Good point, well made. Consider your aunty castrated.

Back in my box now.

 

He'd need to get with someone that can readjust his style early. Once he got used to "dancing" he looked very awkward anytime he tried something different. Look at the painful attempt to initiate offense against Young or his cringey attempt to be a boxer puncher against Norton in the early rounds of the 3rd bout.

He'd need someone like Futch or Steward perhaps to teach him how to initiate power punching while still taking advantage of his great reflexes.

 

Your usual Scien-Terrific quality post Pugguy!

I would just add that Ali did try to punch harder for a while, & I think did then often leverage his body to get most out of it bio-mechanically.
He might have gotten more out of specific weight training. Although I think not so much, he was already pretty strong, & bodybuilder size does not translate into punching power...

I believe Ali hit about a 7 in terms of 1-10 compared to an average HW.
Although often got more out of it re: results due to blinding speed & combinations.

He was literally only 2 lbs. more vs. Foreman compared to Chuvalo before his exile.
Weight was not doing anything for his punches, practice & intent was.
When he no longer had the preternatural leg speed & endurance to dance endlessly.

Before the start of the FOTC (only 215) you can hear the announcer saying Ali's weight was "redistributed": he looked like he had marginally more body fat, a little more upper body-so some of "losing" his super-fast legs likely meant he shed a little muscle below the belt.

I think if Ali had committed to being a banger he never could have gotten as far.
He would have been a contender, maybe occasionally could have grabbed a strap.
But this is true for most any boxer. Make Tyson or Frazier be an outboxer they will obviously not be nearly as good.

Folks generally gravitate naturally towards doing what their talents & dimensions most enable.

 

He was never a puncher, but he had underrated power - particularly in his prime (29-0, 24 KO's). I think with the right manager (like the aforementioned Futch & Moore) he could establish an effective way to be elusive while still packing a punch. For this to work, Ali would have to become a more technical boxer - meaning that his trademark style & move-set (excessive movement, hands down at waist, pulling away from punches as defense, pulling his own punches, lack of body work & inside-game) will need to be changed.

This could have been a good thing for his career longevity in terms of health, but maybe he wouldn't have accomplished the great things he did & become the Ali we all knew & loved.

 

So develop something that wasn't really his strength, sacrificing the things that were? What if Foreman tried to become a speed demon pure boxer?

I don't think Ali is a good one for this idea. Need to start with someone with a lot of natural power. How about we play this game with Lewis?

 

Of course he would win the title. Considering he stopped Sonny Liston (twice), Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Oscar Bonavena, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Ellis, Floyd Patterson (twice), Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Jerry Quarry (twice), Henry Cooper (twice), Archie Moore, Karl Mildenberger, Alex Miteff, Charlie Powell, and carried Buster Mathis to the end when a hard punch would've ended it ... when he WASN'T trying to be a power puncher ...

He'd probably have a more impressive record.

There were any number of fighters Ali clearly could've stopped and made no concerted effort to do so, including guys like Mathis, Lubbers, Mac Foster and Terrell. He had Frazier staggering in round 2 of the second fight didn't go for the kill in the third.

As it stands, he has a more impressive list of stoppage victims than any puncher from his era does. And he wasn't trying to KO people, for the most part, and even carried some.

 

If he started early, I think Ali could probably have been a decent Boxer/Puncher, but not a pure Slugger or Swarmer. He probably could have developed into a Holyfield type fighter, and possibly executed it better than Evander did at times. Ali could change gears mid-fight, so becoming an excellent Boxer/Puncher was certainly a possibility for him, IF he developed that way early on. He would still have been World Heavyweight Champion with such a style, IMHO. He could still have boxed from the outside at times, depending on the opponent.

 

I don’t want to speak for Cross T. but I don’t think the purpose of the hypothetical was to suggest that Ali was necessarily an ideal candidate or not for conversion - simply an interesting thought experiment to chew over with the application of the same logic and methodologies that might deduce better potential in another fighter.

I think it has at least peeled back the fact that Ali was and perhaps still is somewhat underrated in terms of his ability to punch hard at times.

I’m a bit surprised that Ali’s troublesome hands aren’t taken on board more - that can effect how much a fighter might put into his punch. Also, even when Ali did punch with intent, his substantive training and mindset as a boxer/defensive fighter might’ve prevented 100 % unconditional, make or bream commitment as you might’ve seen in a Foreman or Shavers.

Finally, fighters who primarily accent on punch - even if that punch is demonstrably powerful (read: a justifiably deemed “puncher”) will often come to grief at some point anyway - often against a multi faceted (like Ali, surprise, surprise) such is their limited application - it’s the nature of the beast and apportioning of resources.

 

He had those bad hands and from early on in his career. Attempting to turn him into a hitter ruins them a lot earlier and retires him.