How would Chavalo's career have played out if there were 20-25 rounds fight- 60/70's

Well, he got stopped in 4 rounds by Frazier, and in 3 against Foreman.

 

Sure, if you're changing the refereeing standards as well as the distance. But I thought you meant simply a change of distance.

I discussed the difference in refereeing and corner stoppage standards in the Witherspoon V. Dempsey thread recently, pointing out how it renders KO% are usless statistic to compare across eras. Dont know if anyone read that.

No, Frazier beat him so bad, Chuvalo turned away holding his eye, I think his eye socket was broken. One of Frazier's best performances, maybe you should watch it again, you might yet rate Frazier higher.
Looked like Chuvalo was about to quit, in fact he was quitting out of sheer survival insinct, his eye was about to fall out or explode or so I imagine that's how it felt at least. He couldn't have gone 25 rounds like that, not even in the Roman Colosseum.

A few times I guess. But some of those other fighters were probably well-equipped or clever enough to find a winning strategy over 20-25 rounds too.

 

Frazier hurt him because of the eye. Surely you're not suggesting that an eye injury is a sign of a questionable chin?

Against Foreman, I don't think Chuvalo was so much hurt as defensively too primitive to dodge Foreman's bombs. Foreman landed a big left hook that physically moved Chuvalo (it's one of the hardest punches I've ever seen land) and Chuvalo, aside from moving from the physical impact of the punch, wasn't staggered or wobbly at all.

The problem was, however, that Foreman had overcome his early nerves and figured out how easily he could land. He then unloaded a tremendous barrage of punches, the likes of which would have Frazier falling about like a mad donkey. No wonder so many people gave Frazier such a good chance against Foreman: Frazier was seen to have almost as good a chin as Chuvalo and to be far better defensively, so it would take a very canny observer that Foreman would land often enough and hard enough to beat Frazier.

Chins are tested by hard punches from hard punchers, in my opinion, and aside from Oliver McCall I've never seen anyone take hard punches without being stunned as well as Chuvalo. If you look at Chuvalo's losses to Frazier and Foreman, they are as insignificant in chin terms as a stoppage loss can possibly be. As for the Chuvalo vs. McCall chin debate, I tend to believe that McCall's was slightly more tested, but Chuvalo showed more mental fortitude over the course of his career.

As for the original question, Rocky Marciano said of Chuvalo in the 1960s something to the effect that "If all fights were 100 rounds Chuvalo would be undefeated". That's not technically accurate, as Frazier and Foreman showed, but Chuvalo's combination of terrific stamina, strength and durability would make him a fearsome prospect for anyone over 20-25 rounds. For instance, I'd take someone like Tony Tucker to outbox Chuvalo over 12-15 rounds, but someone of Tucker's size and build would be very unlikely to be able to put up a winning pace over an hour or more.

I think Chuvalo's loss column would be a lot more sparse and his win column larger, but there were still boxers in the 1960s and 1970s I'd pick to beat him. Frazier and Foreman would always stop him eventually, unless he could be taught to have a better defense. Ali I think would still win on points, but I think the scorecards would be much closer as even Ali would have to take rests later on in the fight. Ernie Terrell's stamina and excellent pacing would allow him to make it (probably), but I wouldn't rule Chuvalo out.

As for Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Buster Mathis and Chuvalo's other conquerors, I suspect that most of them wouldn't be able to hack it. 15 rounds is murder; 20-25 rounds is like a killing spree. Bonavena showed that stamina was a vulnerability of his (I think that was his undoing against Ali and Frazier) while Mathis and Ellis just didn't have the constitution for that distance in my book.

I think Chuvalo would be talked about as an almost unbeatable fighter except by the top cream of heavyweights. To beat Chuvalo in the real world, you need to be able to either outbox him or to have the finishing ability to stop him. Making fights 20-25 rounds makes the former strategy almost impossible; only the fitness freaks and/or ultra-crafty boxers could manage it.

 

Someone actually pegged Chuvalo as being nearly unbeatable if fights in his era operated as they did a hundred years before. That he was a throwback to the classic "iron men".

Also, Frazier hit Chuvalo so ****ing hard he smashed bones in his face to pieces, and Chuvalo now has a steel plate in his cheek to keep his eye in his head.

He still didn't go down.

 

Well, that's hard to say.

Frazier overwhelmed him with body shots and constant pressure, better jab, better hook, he was just superior at Chuvalo's own game. If not for the injury - and I've heard that the injury was actually a re-injury of something done in training, (true or not I dont know) - I think Chuvalo would have been saved out of mercy by the referee, or taken a very bad beating for the duration, he took a bad enough beating in 4 rounds. But I dont know if he was "rocked" as such by any punch to the chin. This is where my memory of the fight might be insufficient.

Foreman rocked Chuvalo, but again it was Chuvalo's failure to respond to a man overwhelming him by throwing punches, rather than purely the effect of the punches. Chuvalo was "pinned" by Foreman's attack, as with Frazier's. He may have actually been regaining his composure in the final moments against Foreman, recovering from the initial offending punch. But he was doing nothing to stop Foreman unloading bombs on his head. I mean, it's unclear whether he was groggy, or just outclassed in the only area of boxing he knew. Chuvalo was a rough, physical type. Foreman and Frazier were too, and more so ....

The guy fought 90-something fights at heavyweight, against some good, big, strong fighters. He fought until he was 40-ish. He was never knocked down. I've never seen his legs go particularly wobbly, even against Foreman, he seemed to catch a punch flush that lifted him way back and made him back off and retreat, he wasn't necessarily on "***** street". I haven't seen many Chuvalo fights, but I reckon he deserves his reputation for possessing a truly great chin.

 

to be honest,chuvalo suffered that injury in sparing for the frazier fight.he knew if joe landed hard on the cheek he'd be in trouble but took the fight anyway.the fracture was caused in training,his eyeball was out of its socket againt frazier thats why he turned away,chuvalo has the best chin i think of any heavy so far.how many fighters could take those shots from foreman with out going down?oliver mccall maybe but we'll never know know for sure, we do know chuvalo did take them

 

I've always liked George, a gentleman and a credit to the sport, tough and hard nosed.
But he was getting completely ripped to pieces by Joe, he cut often, and this was a very dangerous injury; he would have either turned away and quit or lost an eye OR.....gone down if allowed to continue.
Foreman hurt him baaaad; if allowed to continue, he probably would have eventually tasted canvas there as well...

Lastly, why don't we post another thread that questions who the greatest heavy of all time would be if they all had to fight in an elevator????? :roll:

Who's to say Chuvalo would not be punched out and tiring by, say, the 18th or 19th round? I know a lot of fighters that were always in as good a shape, if not better, than Chuvalo ever was going in to a bout.

Pure speculation; IMHO a large number of Heavys throughout history would have their way with George post-15th round...

my $0.02

 

I have read that he suffered a fractured orbital bone against Frazier. I do not believe he would have or could have, or his management or the ring physician would have considered letting him, fight if this condition were pre-existing. Also, it would have been quite noticeable, with heavy swelling.

 

That's simply ignoring the facts, which are presented clearly in this thread. While I know you have a latent agenda on this matter, it's more or less clearly revealed by this willful ignorance.

Why?

I didn't say McCall was superman. Regarding Seldon and McCall, I think Seldon's success is somewhat exaggerated, and any consideration of this has to take into account that (a) Seldon was a good puncher when he threw his punches properly, and (b) McCall did not only not go down, but he did not stagger. Furthermore, any negative effects on the rating of McCall are vindicated by his proven durability against some of the hardest hitters of all time.

No boxer can consistently face world class opposition and not be in trouble, but boxers with great chins will be able to take numerous amazingly hard blows without being knocked down or out. No boxer on film can match McCall or Chuvalo in this regard.

 

:think

 

Indeed.