How would Chavalo's career have played out if there were 20-25 rounds fight- 60/70's

OK, that's a fair response.
Didn't mean to single you out.
Let's just say I prefered the original subject of this thread - which I acknowledge and credit as your creation.

 

Chuvalo-Forman
I saw this fight recently.
Chuvalo was definately in the fight , even at the time of stoppage.
As far as Chuvalo's defence, he held his hands up high close to his face.
I dont think that Forman hit him on the chin once -- only high on the head.
Chuvalo himself said that he can take those shots all day long.

Chuvalo-Frazier
Eye injury - vision problems.

Also, many of his loses were very close fights that could of gone either way.

No one really overwhelmed George Chuvalo who had 64 KO's to his credit..

 

vitali is not in chuvalo's league as far as taking a punch or durability goes.

 

Question 1: For the reasons already stated.

Question 2: The fight with Jerry Quarry comes to mind, where Chuvalo not only weathered a lot of clean punches, but came back to score the upset knockout.

On the ropes yes, but he was hardly staggering around the place. In fact, punch impact besides, his reaction to the punches was extremely stoical.

He did so, against better opponents, but this is hardly a measure of chin. The fact that Chuvalo has a better record than Vitali in this regard is not what gives him a more consumate chin resume.

How can you say this, when Seldon and Douglas have vastly more impressive records and performances?

There was not a single chin-checking punch in that entire round, from either boxer. Pretty much every punch of significant missed because they weren't stepping in when they attacked and were leaning back very well. Since it was such a vivid fight moment, though, you'll be able to describe it in a little more detail I take it?

So, following this logic, Whitaker was constantly hurting Chavez since he was landing so many combinations? Wow, I will have to re-evaluate Chavez's chin.

So you admit that he wasn't hit by hard combinations, and thus did not really have his chin tested in the same way that a McCall and a Chuvalo were? If this is so, a comparison of chins is rather purposeless, since Vitali wasn't tested to the same extent. Thus we can harken back to the original agreed upon method of testing chins by their being hit, and logically conclude that Chuvalo and McCall were more tested and ergo (since all chins are guilty until proven innocent) can be assumed to have superior chins to Vitali or indeed any of their rivals.

Vitali showed an extremely stern chin in his career, but we can only go on how it was tested. Taking single shots from Lewis is a massive feat (only a few hundred people on the planet could do it without visiting pixie-land) but it is not the supreme test of a chin.

Quarry and Bonavena spring immediately to mind, but I wouldn't forget Muhammad Ali. Ali had a high KO/TKO ratio in the 1960s, but couldn't come close to putting away Chuvalo.

He smiled at his wedding as well, but I doubt it was because the relationship was going downhill. Yes, Lewis smiled on some occasions when he was going badly, but that hardly gives us any necessary descriptive content of the situation. What we do know is that (a) Lewis had won the last round more decisively than any of his previous rounds in the fight, and had had Vitali in serious trouble; (b) Lewis was not playing to the crowd or his opponent, but his trainer, presumably hoping that Manny would get off his case now that the fight was turning his way; and (c) his smile was not one of bearing teeth in mockery, but was the oral version of a knowing wink.

They say boxers are only as good as their last fight. This logic applies in the ring as well: you can be up 13 rounds to 1 going into the 15th, but if you were lost the last round and indeed were horizontal/holding on in pain for most of that 14th round, then your opponent is the one holding the aces.

 

Kurgan has university classes as well as a full time job, and indeed a social life.

 

It makes perfect sense, as I stated in my first response to the thread.

So you are saying that Quarry was not a big puncher, and that Chuvalo did not beat him? How come Chuvalo's clean KO against Quarry can be disregarded on the basis of a mis-timed count, but the extragenous factors behind Frazier and Foreman's stoppages of Chuvalo carry no weight in your mind?

I see; holding onto your opponent also prevents one from staggering around. Does that mean that, since he clinched when he was hurt, Vitali would have been staggering around a lot more in the fight? How does one tell a boxer who has been backed into the ropes and who has fallen into them?

As I said, Chuvalo was being hit a lot because his defence failed him, and Foreman was landing too much. He was stopped not on the basis that he was falling about, but because he was being hit too often by massive blows and not going down. This could happen to ANY boxer who lacks the defence to avoid his opponent's blows, regardless of the quality of his chin. If we are talking comprehensive durability, then yes this counts against Chuvalo. But if we are talking pure quality of chin, then this counts in favour of his chin, not against it.

Chuvalo wasn't just cut, his eye socket was seriously injured and he was in danger of losing his sight in that eye. While a shoulder injury is no joke, it is not comparable. And if Vitali was fighting so well with the cut against Lewis, how come he couldn't find a Suzie-Q esque punch if Rahman and McCall could? At any rate, I did not claim that Chuvalo was better at fighting with an injury that Vitali, so your point is irrelevant.

I didn't say he had a better record, I said he had a better record of his chin being tested. Please read my posts before you respond.

Seldon had faster feet, faster hands and a vastly better jab than any of Vitali's opponents. Comparing Seldon with Vitali is like comparing Pinklon Thomas with Don Steele: Steele might have the prettier record, but it was built up against vastly inferior opposition.

One night and never special? It's interesting to compare Vitali's night in the spotlight with that of Douglas: one fought a young unfocused ATG and KO'd him, the other fought an old unfocused ATG and was stopped in six rounds. Douglas beat an old Trevor Berbick and Oliver McCall, who were better boxers than any of Vitali's wins. Vitali might have a shot against Douglas if Douglas came in unfocused, but his achievements when he came into the ring focused are superior to Vitali's and his best win is far more impressive that Vitali's Sunday fights.

Vitali-Hide. Which heavy punch was it that landed in the 1rst round that hurt Vitali? I personally saw Hide land nothing of note in that round.

So what you're saying is that a boxer can land combinations and not necessarily have their opponent extremely hurt?

 

When and against whom?

I've seen the fights, and you are both exaggerating the extent to which McCall was hurt, and plain just ignoring the reasons why Chuvalo was stopped.

Vitali was hit by single shots from Lewis that seriously hurt him. Foreman landed cleanly and frequently on Chuvalo, but not enough to hurt him, because Chuvalo had a better chin that Vitali.

Now if you mean that I am saying that Vitali's chin was tested more than Chuvalo's, then that is the exact opposite of what I said. To reiterate-

So I'm saying Vitali's chin was tested. It was NOT tested as well as Chuvalo's. Chuvalo gets no less credit for not being as hurt by Foreman's bombs as Vitali was hurt by Lewis's; to say so would not only be a case of double standards, but of sheer illogic.

I suggest you look at some of his fights and re-consider your opinion. After all, if Quarry was not a puncher, then why was he able to destroy Shavers in a single round while Lyle could not? Was LYLE not a puncher?

He also had Ali hurt in their fight, and nearly knocked out Joe Frazier. I'm not saying Bonavena was some sort of cannon-ball hitter, but to claim he wasn't a puncher would be ridiculous.

There is also an interesting reasoning that you use in your evaluation of Bonavena: you claim he could not be a hard hitter because he did not hurt boxers with questionable chins (although Lyle does not belong on that list). Now, if he was not to land his hardest punches on these boxers, would that mean rather than Bonavena being a light puncher, he was not a very skilled fighter? And this lack of skill, of course, did not play out against Chuvalo (who was not a defensively sound boxer) and thus Chuvalo's chin was tested against him.

Perhaps, but Vitali's chin was not tested by Hide or Johnson, making such a fact irrelevant.

I disagree with both your claims: compare Foreman's KO ratio with that of Lewis, especially in their wins against their most notable opposition. Lewis KO'd Tyson and went the distance twice with Holyfield. Foreman also landed harder on Chuvalo than Lewis landed on Vitali, not least because Foreman did not tire quickly; he was also in better shape; and unlike Lewis, Foreman landed combinations. That is why, even if Lewis hit as hard or harder than Foreman, he tested Vitali's chin less. A combination of power-punches is always more likely to KO a boxer than single shots.

Perhaps, but Frazier tested Chuvalo's chin with far more punches than Sanders landed against Vitali. Again, this proves that Vitali had a better defence than Chuvalo, but also shows that Chuvalo's chin was more tested.

Perhaps, but in the corner? When did Lewis smile in the corner when he was in trouble? If your going to claim a pattern, you'd better have a number of incidents to back it up.

Sure, and he smiled when he was toying with his opponents as well. Does that mean that Lewis was toying with Vitali in the sixth?

 

looks to me like this mendoza is only trying to build a case for vitali,any body whos watched boxing for the last 40 years knows chuvalo has 1 of the best chins of all time,vitali isn't close to him.chuvalo has had many more fights then vitali 93 total.a list of alltime best chins,vitali doesn't crack the top 10 we know chuvalo's in the top 3.what a silly thread

 

Foreman DID land chin checking shots. They would have checked the chins of almost any boxer in history. They did not check Chuvalo's chin, because Chuvalo had arguably the greatest chin of all time.

NONE of which address the question of Chuvalo's chin. "Chin" and "durability" are not synonomous.

On what basis do you think that Lewis or Sanders hit Vitali harder than Foreman hit Chuvalo?

I will reiterate my questions: who and when? And which bomb was that that Hide landed cleanly in the first round of his fight with Vitali and shook Vitali up?

Strictly speaking, my job is dealing with international student applications, administrative issues and other such mind-numbing work. In the case of this particular debate, I have put forward my argument on multiple occasions and it has not been challenged in the last instance.

If winning arguments were an issue of "convincing" the other, those with an iron mind would always at worst end up in stalemates. Debate is not an issue of who can believe what, it is an issue of who can put forth the best argument and most effectively criticise the other's argument.

Now, to recap the salient points of my argument-

1. Chins are tested by being hit by punches. Obviously, being hit in sequence by a number of hard punches is the ultimate test.

2. The less hurt a boxer is when subjected to this test, the better their chin is.

3. The boxers who were hit by the hardest punches and who survived this test without either going down or being out on their feet were George Chuvalo and Oliver McCall.

I'd say "convince me otherwise", but I could do that with anything. "Grass is a carnivorous marsuipial" - just try and convince me otherwise.

 

You look a little old for university ,judging by your avatar,that is you I take it?

 

This is just a shellacking.