How would Frazier and Foreman be considered today if Ali never was exiled?

How would Frazier and Foreman be considered today if Ali's career never was interrupted? Would they still be seen as ATGs by most or just strong contenders that could have been champs in an other era (like Quarry is viewed today, more or less) or something else?

Feel free to do a whole imaginary scenario about how things would have developed.

 

A good question.

Obviously much would depend on how everything unfolded.

I suspect that Joe Frazier might always have been the man to seperate Ali from the title but would it have been the FOTC if Frazier had just been the next title challenger in line?

If Foreman had got his title shot against Ali rather than Frazier he might never have been champion.

 

If Ali never was exiled he probably would have met Frazier at his absolute peak, somewhere aroung 69-70 (when he would have been even better than he was in 66-67). I just can't see Frazier beating that version of Ali, and I really rate Frazier, especially the FOTC version of him. Ali would have been able to dance through the whole fight and Joe just would have had to few opportunities to catch him to really make a difference.

I still think Frazier would have been one of Ali's most difficult opponents, though, second only to Norton (and maybe Holmes).

 

If the FOTC happened in 1968 or 1969, I still think Frazier would have caught Ali and possibly knocked him down more than once in his earlier years. When Ali came back after his exile, he punched significantly harder and could take a better punch than the 1960's version.

People discredit Frazier too much on this forum. Compared to Ali, Frazier was a slower fighter, but watching him in his early career against Ellis, Mathis, Quarry, and Eddie Machen, Frazier is much quicker than people give him credit for. No other heavyweight fighter moved his head quicker and pressured an opponent faster than Frazier.

 

What follows is a post I did in the fall about the HW division in the 60s and 70s without Ali...

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I certainly don't discredit Frazier. I think he was great. I just happen to think that an un-exiled Ali would to be too hard for anyone in 69-70.

I don't think Ali punched harder after the exile. It was just that he was moving less and therefore sitting down more on his punches. And since Frazier only knocked Ali down once, when he was truly exhausted, I don't think he would knock down a more mobile Ali with better stamina, as would have been the case had he never been exiled.

 

I resolve to read the question more carefully next time.

 

Yeah, but interesting scenario anyway.

 

I think Fraizer would have beaten Ali had they fought earlier. Ali's 3 year lay off help extend his career. If he had not had the lay off I think he would have been used up by age 33. Maybe even earlier.

 

You might be right. On the other hand I don't think he would have had as many wars, and they (especially the one in Manilla) contributed a lot to his rapid decline after 1975.

But if Frazier beat Ali somewhere around 69-70 he probably would be even more admired today, since no excuses could be made that Ali wasn't in his prime.

How do you see Foreman's career unfolding then?

 

If Ali fought Frazier at his absolute peak, I see Ali winning a close decision. The lay off excuse for Ali is a legitimate one.

 

Any lay-off affects any fighter. Even fighters like Duran having a year off affects them. Timing, reflexes, conditioning, distance etc are affected. Ali had nearly a 4 year lay-off - his legs weren't nowhere near the same. He wasn't fighting in the lay-off. He was going around giving lectures and even starring in a play to make ends meet.

Frazier and Foreman would always be highly rated. They had unbeaten records for a long time and all were Olympic Gold Winners. Frazier would always give Ali a hard fight but i see Ali winning by UD without the lay-off. You can see all 3 are great in their own ways. Ali the boxer, Frazier the non-stop swarmer, Foreman the power machine.

 

I believe if Ali was able to box from 1967-1970 things would have happened differently in regards to Frazier and Foreman. I believe Ali's team would have been shrewd and try to fight Frazier early like in late 1967 or early 1968, before Frazier could hit that peak form of 1971. Likewise Ali would have gone after Foreman no later than 1971, before he hit his 1973 form. As a result, Ali would have beat them both.

 

Without the lay off I believe Ali would have had more wear and tear on him and less to rpove by the time he got to Foreman.

I'd imagine him losing to Frazier but winning an immediate rematch. I think he then loses to Norton and eventually loses to Foreman. Maybe again he wins a rematch. His career would not have gone on so long.

IMo the exile actually helped to preserve him.

 

Him doing worse wihout the exile? Very much doubt it.

He probably would have fought Frazier, Norton and Foreman during the period 1968-1973 so he wouldn't be really old when he met either of them.

As for "wear and tear"... Ali always took it easy in sparring sessions, and he rarely got hit and never came close to taking a beating in his prime, so that would prolong his career. I also don't think his fights with Frazier would be as brutal and they (especially Manilla) are what really got to him in the end.

I think he would stay reasonable fresh (though ageing somewhat, of course) until at least 1975-1976. I can see him staying unbeaten during this time, possibly losing to either Frazier or Norton, but not to Foreman.

That his record would be worse by 1973 than it was in reality is very far fetched IMO.