How would history view Norton and Frazier if they never beat Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by NewChallenger, Jan 24, 2023.



  1. Stewart Swift

    Stewart Swift New Member Full Member

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    In fairness, who didn't become slightly more elevated from fighting Ali?
    Earnie Shavers definitely did.
    Foreman did - although he also helped himself with the Pops Foreman act in his second coming.
    George Chuvalo

    Who was ever considered lesser after fighting Ali... Sonny Liston maybe, and he is one of my favourite boxers ever!
     
  2. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Holmes beats Foreman
     
  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He could but I doubt it. He struggled greatly with his own mediocre opposition and with the exception of the unskilled Cobb, rarely ever shut out his opponents, contrary to popular belief, nor outboxed them ala 60s Ali.

    Even if he did lose to Holmes, circa ‘78 (the earliest time I can really see Holmes beating Foreman). Foreman would’ve still had a 5 year reign which would still land him substantially higher on an ATG list.
     
  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Foreman became elevated after fighting Ali? How so? He lost his title and was mentally destroyed after.
     
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    None of the guys you mention had cleaned out like Frazier did. Patterson come closest, but he had already been brutally KO'd.

    Frazier had beaten four of the top 10 when he faced Ali.
     
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  6. Stewart Swift

    Stewart Swift New Member Full Member

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    Have you seen the interview where Foreman said pretty much exactly my words? But ok.
     
  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No I haven't and it makes absolutely zero sense. Without Ali, Foreman would've reigned until at the very least '77 (I think he would've beaten Young had he not had his confidence shattered and tried to fight a style that was all wrong for him), at minimum making his one year reign go to 4 years which alone would've greatly enhanced his legacy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Are you kidding about Foreman? He was a big favourite going into the fight and was seen a fairly exposed afterwards.

    His second career helped redeem him, not only for the relative success at that age but also because he showed the qualities many felt he was missing against Ali.
     
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  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What does it matter what Foreman said about it? It's not he who decided how others viewed him. And he clearly didn't believe so himself either, seeing how shattered his confidence was afterwards. He was big favourite and badly outthought and outfought by Ali, who rarely looked very good after that fight either.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  10. ForemanJab

    ForemanJab Deus Vult Full Member

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    Well as you mentioned against common opponent Frazier, Bonavena was able to inflict more damage with single punches, which shouldn't be understated. Additionally, Bonavena has a significantly higher career KO % despite being a low output one punch at a time brawler compared to Quarry who generally threw and landed far more punches. Reason would dictate that if Quarry's punch power was at least comparable to Bonavena's his KO rate would be superior, but the inverse is true. And please don't reply with the nonsense that it's because Quarry fought more durable quality opponents because it's not true. They both fought their share of creampuffs.
     
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    But Bonavena didn't stop any of his better opponents. Against ranked opp, Quarry's KO ratio is higher.
     
  12. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You don't have to use circular reasoning to make the case for someone like Mayweather who conquered multiple divisions and never lost in his prime while immediately rematching guys who gave him trouble. Take out an impressive win and he is still an undefeated multi belt champion.

    Take out Nortons win over Ali and your not left with a lot
     
  13. ForemanJab

    ForemanJab Deus Vult Full Member

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    Well Bonavena wasn't a very skilled fighter. He relied solely on his punch and good durability. Thus his finishing skills were poor. Quarry was a high volume fighter who relied on attrition to wear down his opponents. The vast majority of both their records were built against cannon fodder. Again, with his style if Quarry's power was comparable to Bonavena's his overall career stoppage rate SHOULD be higher, but it isn't. Not even close.
     
  14. mirexxa

    mirexxa Heavyweight Champ Full Member

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    People are criticising Tyson's resume ffs subtract Ali from Frazier's resume and it doesn't even come close to Tyson
     
  15. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Agreed, but Bokaj was responding to a post you made comparing an "Ali-less" Frazier to Braddock, Willard and Patterson. I think I'd still rank Frazier ahead of Patterson, if he hadn't fought Ali, just. He'd clearly still be way ahead of Willard and Braddock.
     
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