How would history view Norton and Frazier if they never beat Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by NewChallenger, Jan 24, 2023.



  1. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Also Frazier didn't come close to cleaning out the division he missed out on Lyle, Norton, Middleton, Shavers, Martin, etc among others and obviously didn't beat Foreman
     
  2. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Oh God, this clown is back.
     
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  3. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Take out his best win and you have lots to work with. Or do you disagree?
     
  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    He was still a rated contender and beat other rated contenders. Or do you disagree?
     
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  5. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Middleton as in, Larry Middleton? That's a bit of a stretch. Frazier beat Quarry & Bonavena, who both beat Middleton. He also beat Ellis twice, who drew with Middleton.

    Martin as in, Leotis Martin? Also quite a stretch. Again, he lost to both Bonavena & Quarry, as well as fighters not as good as those 2.

    Shavers wasn't a contender until after Frazier lost his title.

    The only things of note Lyle had done prior to Frazier losing to Foreman, was beat Buster Mathis and lose to Jerry Quarry.

    Even Norton hadn't done anything at world level until after Frazier lost his title.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  6. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    His wins aside from Ali over rated contenders are Quarry, Young, and Bobick. Not really an awe inspiring list and to make things worse many had him losing to Young who lost to Ocasio in his next two fights
     
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, you'd arguably have to subtract Tyson's losses to Douglas and Holy as well. But I'd agree that Tyson's win resume is superior if you take away Ali from Frazier's, but no one has made that comparison until you just made it.

    The comparison being made was to Willard, Braddock and Patterson. Tyson was just something you threw in from nowhere.
     
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  8. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He's got the same style as Ali, thus a stylistic advantage over Foreman. He'd outpoint him.

    This I agree with, Foreman would be a lock for top 5 all time.
     
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Of these only Foreman was ranked in 1971. But, yeah, Foreman was definitely a player in the division after beating Chuvalo in 1970.

    But Frazier did a good job of cleaning out the top contenders right after Ali's retirement. He beat three of the semi finalists of the WBA tournament. Plus Chuvalo, Mathis and Ramos.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  10. mirexxa

    mirexxa Heavyweight Champ Full Member

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    Frazier was better than those guys, i was just comparing periods in history where an average champion lost his title to a great fighter. Frazier losing the title to Foreman would be comparable to that, although Frazier wasn't an average champion. He was a hell of a fighter that reached ATG status after beating Ali
     
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  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yep.
     
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mentioning that the win over Young was close, but not that that also was the case for the loss to Holmes kind of reeks of agenda.

    As does your straw man "awe inspiring list" which no one ever has said that Norton had. Norton isn't viewed as an ATG by anyone I know. On strength of giving a past prime but still very good Ali and prime Holmes some of their toughest fights, he is seen as a very difficult opponent for anyone without a big punch (the Garcia loss was when he was still green and duly avenged when he reached his prime). That's all.

    In terms of resume he's at best nr. 5 among the fighters Ali beat.
     
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  13. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    You realize not one of those opponents was on the horizon during Frazier's reign right? Literally not one. As a matter of fact, one of Frazier's most criticized defenses was over a man who knocked out Shavers.
     
  14. Boxing GOAT

    Boxing GOAT Active Member Full Member

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    Neither of them gets nearly the press and accolades they've gotten if they had not fought Ali. Norton was a good fighter, not a great one. I'd say the same of Frazier, though he ranks higher than Norton.
     
  15. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    This is an ad nausem repeated cliche and it's not very true at all. They were similar yes but not carbon copies.

    JT beautifully breaks it down here
    Holmes is often awarded victories over a prime Foreman and Liston on the basis that "If Ali could do it, so could Holmes because close enough right" when Holmes simply never proved he was able to beat that quality of fighter. Granted, he never had a chance to, but as JT notes above he struggled with his own mediocre competition.
     
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