How Would Holmes Have Done Against Alis Opponent s?

What's the point where we're synching their careers?

EDIT: In other words, which iteration of Holmes goes into the first Liston fight?

 

FOTC

I don't see Holmes keeping Frazier off him for 15 rounds. Ali had quicker hands than Holmes. IMO Ali was a better puncher as he stopped more durable fighters. Holmes has a reputation as a bigger puncher because he was more flat footed but this is an incorrect perception. If Ali, a superior combination puncher, couldn't beat Frazier in FOTC, i don't see Holmes having enough fire power to keep Frazier off him.

Holmes likely wins the earlier rounds but Frazier batters him later on. Frazier UD 9-6.

Rumble

The idea that any clever boxer can outbox Foreman like Young is a bit silly. Foreman was so good at cutting off the ring that even Ali felt he had to go to the ropes instead of trying to dance. Holmes does not throw a powerful lead right hand to hurt Foreman the way Ali repeatedly did. Holmes can't lean on the ropes with a high guard and absorb body shots while firing fast combinations up top. Ali had outstanding reflexes that allowed him to block incoming shots. Holmes's reflexes weren't quite as amazing. Foreman stops him in 6 IMO.

Thriller

Holmes likely beats this version of Frazier in a competitive decision. Holmes 9-6 UD

Second reign

Holmes beats everyone post Foreman. Bugner could give him a solid fight but Joe lacked the agression to win. Norton would be his toughest test and just like their actual fight, Holmes would edge him close. Lyle and Shavers could score knockdowns (as Shavers did in their second fight) but Holmes is too good and will get up to win.

 

OK. He turned pro in 73. Got his title shot in 79. Ali turned pro in 1960, and got his title shot in 1964.

Since we're not doing the ridiculous fantasy stuff like transplanting them to live in another era, I assume we'll just match Holmes as he actually existed against Ali's actual opponents at different points in Ali's career.

Roughly, without doing exact date calculations, a title shot 4 years into Holmes's career, followed by taking on the best contenders for the next two or three, would unfairly put his challenges at a time before he matured as a fighter. He just begins entering his prime when he's exiled. 3 years pass, and he returns close to his prime in Witherspoon/Marvis shape. May well beat Frazier in 1971 and get the title back. He'd be around Spinks shape for Foreman, which is enough to beat Big George. After that, he has another 5 years or so where he's relatively viable at the top level. But unlike Ali, everybody will still probably hate him, so the judges won't give him breaks like Ali got.

His record would look very strange. Lots of losses early where he's inexplicably matched against one title challenger after another, and then a glimmer of genius -- probably enough to win the title -- right before getting exiled. Comes back and beats Foreman and Frazier, nabs the title, and then has some uninspiring performances along with some victories; may regain the title once or twice. Loses once or more to prime Norton along the way, although it would be close.

 

FOTC Frazier beats Holmes in 14th round by TKO

Rumble in the jungle Foreman stops Holmes by brutal TKO in round 6 or 7

Holmes vs Norton in 1973 Norton would beat him by SD or they would rob him, but in triology Holmes would UD Norton once while second fight would be a draw maybe?

Thrilla in Manilla Holmes beats Frazier by UD in brutal fight

Holmes would beat the rest of guys from 70s with Jimmy Young giving him most trouble

 

I think Holmes probably loses the Fight of the Century (FOTC) to Frazier but wins the rest. While Ali was more athletic and faster, I’d argue Holmes was more technical overall. That’s part of why he had a longer prime he conserved energy well, used subtle defense, and had sharper fundamentals. Holmes was also better at fighting on the inside when needed. His right uppercut was nasty, and he hit harder than Ali, which I think would help him in the matchups Ali struggled in.

Against Norton, I think Holmes beats him more convincingly than Ali ever did. Holmes had the jab to disrupt Norton’s rhythm and didn't have the same technical flaws Norton exploited against Ali. Even though Norton gave him a tough fight in ’78, Holmes showed an ability to adjust and fight through adversity, especially impressive since it was only his second major fight. A more seasoned Holmes would likely handle Norton more decisively.

Foreman would be dangerous, especially early. Holmes didn’t have Ali’s chin or unbreakable will, but he had the footwork, jab and power to frustrate Foreman. He could stun him with straights, survive the early pressure, and take over once Foreman tired, similar to how he broke down Cooney.

Frazier would be the toughest. In an FOTC-type war, Holmes' tendency to take rounds off could cost him, he didn’t have Ali’s nonstop engine. While Holmes would land more clean shots, especially with his jab and uppercut, Frazier’s pressure might still overwhelm him late, either by close decision or stoppage. But if they fought a second time, I doubt Frazier could sustain that same pace, and Holmes might adapt and stop him.

Everyone else he beats without too much issue I don't think there was anyone else besides these 3 who could really give Holmes a tough fight

 

Curiously, his next-to-last fight would be a match against a prime Larry Holmes.

He probably ekes out a Berbick win, and retires on a high note.

 

What @dmt said except I don't see Holmes being conditioned well enough for the thrilla, but Frazier could still end up with a bad eye from Holmes' thumb, I think Frazier takes him Holmes isn't going to maintain as well as Ali

 

I think he would do very well but ultimately end up with more losses than Ali did

 

Even starting to face top fighters after only 4 years as a pro, the only ones that Ali fought that IMO would be a big challenge (some because Holmes' had only been boxing a few years) are Doug Jones, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and George Foreman. I'd favor LH against all of them. Doug Jones would be a tough guy to fight with Holmes' limited boxing experience but I'd pick Holmes to pull it out. I think Holmes is too well conditioned, too quick, and after fighting Doug Jones he would gain a lot experience and would handle Liston. I'd pick him to beat Frazier because his jab and 1-2 are strong and would make JF reset and would probably swell JF to the point that he couldn't continue the fight at some point. If he fights JF two more times, he'd be facing a greatly diminished JF and unless Holmes is diminished too, it should get easier. Holmes IMO, beat Norton convincingly but Norton went the distance. I don't think Holmes would ever have much of a problem with Foreman, 3 rounds of jabbing and boxing GF, then when GF started to tire, Holmes would pick him apart. 5-6 rounds and GF would be finished.

I don't think Holmes would have much of a problem with Patterson, Bonavena, Quarry, or Cooper, but Mildenberger might be interesting. Holmes never fought a southpaw as a pro and the one he fought in the amateurs beat him. But the one in the amateurs was a big puncher while Mildenberger was more of a boxer. I suspect that with more rounds Holmes would figure him out and win convincingly.

 

I have read somewhere that Holmes vs Foreman was proposed in 1976 and Holmes's team was petrified and said no. I doubt it will be that easy.

 

Lots of great arguments in this thread but i am genuinely mystified by people insisting Holmes hit harder than Ali. Based on what? No one seems to offer any actual explanation as to how and why this is the case. But otherwise, lots of great arguments.