How Would Holmes Have Done Against Alis Opponent s?

Holmes sat down on his punches more consistently than Ali, which translated to more weight and torque behind his shots. You can see the effect in how his punches visibly shook opponents. He often stunned or dropped bigger, heavier guys like Shavers, Cooney, and Smith. While he wasn’t a one-punch knockout artist, I feel like his power was more thudding and his punches were heavier then Ali's.

Ali threw faster, snappier shots but often off his back foot and rarely committed full weight behind them. He prioritized speed and volume over power, and that’s reflected in how rarely he truly hurt top-tier opponents outside of accumulation. So while Ali was the faster puncher, Holmes generally delivered more impact when he landed clean least that's my perspective.

 

Ali stopped men who had never been stopped before. Bonavena, despite being "smaller" than Cooney and Smith, was far more durable. Ali sat down on one left hook and it dropped Ringo like Rocky chopping down a tree in Rocky 4.

Holmes being a bit more flat footed doesn't make him the heavier puncher IMO. Ali sat down on his punches plenty of times. Ali was staggering Liston in rounds 1 and 2 of his fights in the first fight. Ali staggered Foreman in rounds 3 and 5 and was repeatedly snapping his head back from round 1.

Ali also stopped Lyle whose only other prime ko loss was to Foreman.

Stopping Lyle, Bonavena, and Foreman >>>>>>>>>> Shavers, Cooney and Smith.

Ali sat down on his punches plenty but he also mixed it up with fast flurries which gave the impression he didn't sit down. I don't see any evidence that Holmes hit harder. I only see evidence that Ali hit harder.

 

Assuming prime then he beats them all, Holmes didn’t have the same flaws as Ali as much as we assign them to put shine on Frazier here…I think that he was better then JF at least enough to win by a competitive UD he already fought and beat Norton and Liston he’d absolutely hammer he was like Ali but mean and of course George Foreman would get mugged off that fight would be one sided it wouldn’t be an aging Ali this time and the forum would cry blood if it was ever possible.

 

Ali stopped Bonavena by sucker punching him illegally multiple times who tf counts that?… Lyle wasn’t that good lol and he stopped GF because he was going to fall over he was so tired… GF’s chin has a bit of a * next to it he was hurt BADLY by the very first right thrown by Lyle, stunned by Young a bunch and was never really tested we go on and on about 80s-90s feats of GF’s chin when he had a good defence / learnt to roll shots better but in the 70s nothing suggests his chin was iron.

 

Ali had power perhaps slept on but my impression is he often didn't sit on his punches.

But that's his style so I am not sure that would have been a better result for him.

 

I think your points are fair, but a lot of it leans on results-based analysis rather than the actual effect of the punches in the moment. If we look at a shared opponent like Norton, Holmes seemed to hurt him more visibly. In their fight, Holmes staggered Norton hard twice in round 13 and repeatedly snapped his head back with the jab something Ali never really did over three full fights. Ali may have edged two of those on the cards, but he never seriously rocked Norton.

With Foreman, Ali stopped him but it was largely the result of exhaustion and mental fatigue. While Ali did stagger Foreman with flurries, particularly in rounds 4 and 5, he never had him on the verge of being knocked out from a single clean punch. The KO came from a well-timed shot on a completely gassed opponent walking into it with his hands down—not from raw power alone.

Lyle is a better case for Ali, no doubt. But even there, Ali waited until Lyle was clearly tired before pouring it on. The stoppage came from a rapid flurry that forced the referee’s hand while Lyle was still standing, not from one concussive blow. Holmes, on the other hand, had several late-round stoppages where his jab and right hand wore down and stopped opponents Snipes being one example.

It’s also worth noting that Holmes generally fought bigger men, with most of his opponents falling in the 215–225 lb range. Ali’s most iconic fights were typically against guys in the 200–210 range. Hurting and stopping those larger opponents consistently supports the case that Holmes had heavier hands especially when he chose to sit down on his shots.

 

lol Ali stopped Bonavena with a clean left hook. Nothing sucker punching about it.

Gf did have a great chin. Lyle was a big puncher. There is zero asterisk next to 70s Foreman chin.


Ali’s power is greater than Holmes.

 

Ok cheerleader that’s the depth of your fanning? YES Bonavena was dropped fair once with a left hook everything after that was a sucker punch UNBELIEVABLY it’s on film.
You can see the ref letting Ali swing on Oscar illegally with no standing count, no mutual corner or even a warning he just let Ali run up and hit a disoriented Oscar illegally dropping him twice for a 3 KD stoppage AGAIN no need to check Ring Mag just YouTube it… as for Foreman’s chin it certainly wasn’t “Iron” see Ali for that Foreman was average to good he was hurt by Lyle badly multiple times Ali ate it, Lyle was hurt by Foreman multiple times Ali ate it… Shavers hurt Lyle badly Ali ate it that’s an “iron chin” those guys were all about on the same level Ali was on the tier with your Chuvalo’s McCall’s and Vitalis etc.

 

Holmes loses to 1971 Frazier and splits a series with Norton. Wins close one with Frazier in Manila.

 

At teh risk of stating the obvious, Holmes was significantly older when he was matched against the best in the division, and perhaps for the same reason aged a bit better.

A lot is going to depend upon how you mesh teh timelines.

 

I agree w Cross Trainer that the timelines don’t line up.

If we’re using first title shot as the starting point, Holmes from the Spinks fights would be getting his ass kicked in FOTC. And the rest of the 70s wouldn’t be much prettier.


IDK if Ali was on higher h2h level than Tyson or Holmes, but Tyson fell off significantly at a young age while Holmes was just getting started while almost thirty. Ali’s longevity is why he’s number 1.

 

Sync the timelines up and Holmes doesn't go very well at all.

Take a peak Ali for all his own fights and he probably doesn't lose. Norton sure ain't beating 67 Ali as guys like Futch admitted.

 

Are we sure that even the Holmes of the Spinks fight didn't have enough left to take Frazier '71? He has different tools available than Ali, even while aging.

I agree that the 70s start looking ugly if we match him up by title shot, tho.

 

Honestly, I don't think a fading Holmes and early 70s Ali were worlds apart.

 

Along those lines, I'm wondering whether Holmes's uppercut, tendency not to try to lean away from left hooks, and more solid and punishing jab might be enough to do better than Ali did. Same general stratosphere of fighter; altered toolset to maybe deal better with Frazier. Plus, older Holmes might have the nous to just clinch Frazier more, like Ali did when he waltzed to victory in fight #2.