This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected rennan Carpentier Darcy Gibbons Firpo Tunney
Tommy Gibbons raises very serious questions in a 15 rounder here, even the slightly aging 31 year old veteran of Shelby. Johnson was somebody who commonly paddled backwards for three out of four rounds. Tommy was a marvelous boxer as well as a dangerous puncher who wouldn't hesitate to accept the initiative in that situation. As he demonstrated in his first two bouts against Greb, he had the skills necessary to defeat faster opponents than himself. Gene Tunney wanted no part of Tommy Gibbons in 1923. Lil' Artha' specialized in neutralizing an opponent's jab, but he'd have an awful lot more to worry about in dealing with Tommy. Dempsey was the only one at the time able to successfully deal with Tommy in a first attempt [where again, it took peak Greb three tries to finally get it right]. When the Windmill did master him, Harry did it by swarming and not allowing Tommy to get set. That's not how Johnson boxed. At 162-1/2 pounds, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien held the 205 pound newly crowned HW champion to a six round draw in a bout many observers believed O'Brien may have shaded. He was by far the most skilled and experienced boxer Johnson competed against during his reign. Tommy was bigger, taller, stronger and far more durable than Philly Jack. If Johnson loafed, Tommy would make him pay. Greb may well have gone 45-1 in 1919 if Tommy had been on his list of opponents that year. That's how good he was.
Prime Johnson would have beaten all of Dempseys opposition. Probably easily. Prime Dempsey would do the same vs Johnsons. A slick hit and run boxer like Obrien could outbox anyone over a short distance. My feeling is that prime Johnson would eventually stop Obrien in a 15 round or more bout.
EXCELLENT post! :good My thoughts exactly. I have no doubt that Tommy and his boxing master brother Mike would spend many nights in training camp devising a fight plan to beat Johnson. Win or lose, there is no mismatch here. Johnson is in for a fight.
johnson was better than dempsey, he was finished when he lasted more than 20 rounds agains a peak willard... i think that even a past prime johnson would beat genne tunney . johnson would frustrate dempsey too, he would beat dempsey by easy ud or late stoppage.
He couldn't even beat Marvin Hart by easy UD or late stoppage. So how will he accomplish this against Dempsey? Dempsey, who is faster than Hart, harder-hitting than Hart and will be tearing after Johnson with twice the ferocity of Hart? Johnson will be too focused on defense to dominate Dempsey "easily" or stop him. Win? Possibly. Easily? No way.
Johnson was floored ( and according to some press hurt ) by Kethcel, and was lucky to get a draw vs. Jim Battling Johnson. Johnson barely edged Frank Moran based on the ESPN flim. In summary, Johnson was hardly dominant vs. guys who would not be in the top 25 today. IMO, Dempsey's title opponents were a bit better than what Johnson faced, and Johnson would likely lose twice under the assumption that he took time off as Dempsey did when he meet Tunney. Gibbons might be able to decision Johnson, and I would say Carpentier, and Firpo have the punchers chance.
Jack Johnson versus Fred Fulton would have been interesting as well, if you wanted to extend the pre-title comparisons beyond Hart-Johnson. Jack would not be producing any instant knockout against the Rochester Plasterer. Fred was not the sort to typically win decisions against quality opposition. [20 round decision against Porky Dan Flynn at the outset of 1916 notwithstanding.] His shot at Johnson would be based upon the puncher's chance. But he possessed power in both hands, a fine body attack, and Jack's defensive orientation would give Fulton an opportunity to unload. Fred had a glass jaw, and wasn't nearly as durable as Willard. However, Big Jess did pose serious logistical problems in Havana with his effective use of height, and there are some questions about Johnson's true power against full fledged modern sized prime heavyweights which Dempsey is not plagued by. Fulton did produce a second round knockdown against Langford in their first bout, an achievement which required a pretty fair measure of power at that stage of Sam's career. My best guess here is that Johnson would take a comfortable 20 round decision over Fulton in a match which would reveal a great deal more about Fred than Jack. Because of questions about Johnson's true power against modern sized prime heavyweights, combined with Fulton's not suspect but convicted chin, Johnson-Fulton has interesting speculative potential.
Johnson beats Gibbons. The best Johnson probably beats Dempsey. Johnson Tunney would be extremely interesting. I am at a loss as who would win this one. Tunney was quick and could stay away from Johnson infighting tactics. Tough call.
I've read many newspaper articles concerning the Johnson Moran bout. After the 10th round it was obvious Moran was being outclassed. At the bouts end Johnson was unmarked while Moran was cut over the eyes and nose. Many state Johnson won "easily". Johnson sent Moran back to his corner several times wobbling from punches. Nothing that indicates Johnson was close to losing the fight. The crowd had a contingent from Ireland who were rooting for Moran so when the winner was announced there was hooting from the audience. Morans rushes however hit mostly air although he tried to land a ko blow many missed by a wide margin.
really? in 1905 johnson was green, he was in his peak in 1910 ,ok..fyreman jim flyn in his absolute peak with a record of 28-8 lost by ko against johnson and 5 years later he stopped dempsey in a single round(yes blablabla i don´t buy the history of this fight, he lost by ko, period)... johnson had all the tolls to anull dempsey. he was bigger,stronger, smarter, he had much better defence, he had more stamina, more skilled, and he did beat murder punchers like langford who probably did hit harder than dempsey, dempsey was dropped by light punchers like the lhw tunney, nobodies like flyn or a caveman like firpo did put his ass out of the ring.
it is very possible, johnson was the more skilled fighter, the bigger man, the stronger man, he had the better defence, he had more stamina, he had comparable speed , he was as fast(if not faster) johnson was better in my eyes.johnson did beat the best men of his era in jefries, langford, fitzsimmons, mc vea, jeannete, burns,moran... who did beat dempsey? carpentier? firpo?willard?sharkey? he avoided wills and even a past prime langford, and he lost twice against tunney(and it looked more a problem of "styles make fights" than "he was past his prime")
