How would Johnson rank if Jackson were the first black Heavyweight Champion?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Reason123, Nov 20, 2015.


  1. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

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    Hello,

    This is something I've always wondered. Lets say if Corbett gave Jackson a rematch and Jackson won. Also if he would've lost to Jeffries and all the heavyweight champs stayed exactly the same from Jeffries on. How would that have affected Jack Johnson's place in history? Would we even talk about Johnson now? Would Johnson even be ranked in the top ten? Or would Jackson be in just about everyone's top ten list in Johnson's place?

    Also what do you think Jackson's title defense would look like? I'm unsure but will take a swing and guess something like what I have below. I believe Jackson was an honest man and would've given everyone a fair shot.

    Won title from Corbett KO 28
    First title defense: Charlie Mitchell KO 3
    Second: Joe Goddard rematch Jackson W ko 19
    Third: Corbett trilogy KO 23
    Fourth: Peter Maher KO 1
    Fifth: Fitzsimmons KO 10

    sixth: Jeffries L KO 23

    So five successful title defense and loses to prime Jeffries when he's past his prime.

    Also how would this title reign look like compared to Johnson's?
     
  2. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You are making a number of assumptions about Jackson’s success as champion.

    He did not age particularly well, owing in large part to his drink problem.

    My gut tells me that somebody gets him before Jeffries.
     
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Peter Jackson was the Brittish Empire Champion, which at the time carried a lot of weights. His ring record was excellent, he fought the best. Tall, very fast, skilled, and with good power, Jackson was an all-around talent. His chin was good, not great and he was not waxed until he fought Jeffries past his prime.

    According to experts of the time, such as Geroge Siler Jackson was better than Johnson by long odds! Circa 1907.

    Had Jackson beaten Corbett or Fitz ( Jackson got the better of Fitz in sparring ), Johnson's star dims for sure. Jackson, though black was a gentleman and well liked by many including the press. The polar opposite of Johnson in many areas.

    I think Jackson would have offered any man a title shot, regardless of race or creed if the money was right.
     
  5. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It would change history and perspective a great deal no other way around it. I don't think it would diminish Johnson's in the ring accomplishments that much, a little for sure but he would still be viewed as a great champion. Culturally speaking things would be viewed differently. Johnson gets a lot of credit for breaking the glass ceiling. Mainstream people recognize him more for that than beating say the Mcvey's and Tommy Burns of the world. Remove that cultural significance to his achievement but keep the same personality on him and I think many of the media of the time that supported him and defended him abandon him. He may even have been robbed of the title in one of his defenses. Because his personality as compared to Jackson who would of preceded him would of rankled even more people of his era than he already did.
    It's an interesting topic for sure.
     
  6. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

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    Janitor,

    Yes, I'm making an number of assumptions. I knew about Jackson's drinking problem but, I thought winning the title would change his life around. Since it seems alot of his drinking came from depression. Winning the title would surely have lifted his spirits up.
     
  7. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

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    Thanks everyone for the replies very interesting thoughts.


    Yes, Jackson winning the title especially if he had as much success as I think he would. Would surely take Johnson down a few in the rankings. However, it would also affect a number of heavyweights. For some reason I never thought about this but, Fitzsimmons would probably never be ranked with the heavyweights again and maybe not as high p4p. Corbett would also be ranked lower. Lots of possibilities here that could drastically change the history of the division. I wonder if it would've been for the better though?
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am convinced that Jackson at his peak was the best heavyweight between Sullivan and Jeffries. If he can keep his house in order, he potentially has everything to play for.

    Hard to be sure about the exact cause of his drink problem. Jackson was an intelligent man, and it is well documented that intelligent people are susceptible to drink problems.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Many of the old time fighters were big drinkers, but not all of them could handle it.

    I tend to agree that Jackson was better than Sullivan based on wins.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Jackson's manager didn't.
     
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I disagree with Corbett. If Jackson was the champion, and Corbett drew with him, Corbett's stock goes up. Based on a detailed round by round ****ysis, Corbett won more rounds than Jackson in the first 25 rounds, and there was little action after that. However, Jackson won some rounds by the larger margin's.

    Speaking of Corbett, he had a high opinion on Jackson ranking him 1B with Jeffries.

    Jim Corbett (circa 1925) rankings.

    1A. Jeffries
    1B. Jackson
    3. Fitzsimmons
    4. Sullivan
    5. Slavin and Dempsey
    7. Langford
    8. Johnson
    9. Willard
    10. Sharkey and Wills
    12. McCoy and Mitchell
    14. Kilrain
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I try to ignore manager's and trainer's input especially if they had a falling out with their fighter. In other cases, manger picks are pure homer picks.

    I'd rather go with what the fighters, or ref's said.
     
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    This is what he said while he was managing Jackson.

    He said that the only person who would have beaten Jackson, was a prime Sullivan.
     
  14. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

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    Wow! I've never seen Corbett rankings thanks Mendoza! I guess I thought Corbett would be ranked lower because I have him losing twice to Jackson in title fights. However, I didn't know Corbett was winning the first 25 rounds in their first fight. Perhaps I'm overestimating Jackson a bit.

    Corbetts rankings are interesting I'm surprised he ranks Sullivan so high. Also, Slavin being equal with Dempsey is a surprise. Makes me wonder just how good Slaving was. Did they have similar styles for Corbett to rank them together?
     
  15. JWSoats

    JWSoats Active Member Full Member

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    In his autobiography The Roar of the Crowd, Corbett at the end summarizes his thoughts of the champions who followed him and says of Jackson (who was not a champion) that 'he may have been the greatest of them all.'