How would Pernell Whitaker do in the late 40's-early 50's?

He'd go 97-6-3 (22) with a 5 year reign at lightweight and 8 defenses.

 

Whitaker's durability was superb. Have a look at his resume, how long he fought, how he fought above his natural division etc. He was excellent.

 

You took one sentence out of the paragraph I wrote which is now out of context. Put it back in the paragraph and re-read it as I wrote it. I was stating if Whitaker was fighting in the '40s he would have had to adjust his style in order to be more exciting otherwise he would have been box-office poison. And the fact that he had a great defense but not much of a punch and not the greatest of jaws wouldn't have been conducive to a successful career back then with the kind of style change he would need to make. I thought it was pretty clear, but if you parse my words its another definition.

 

He could have used his style to draw, the same way Jack Johnson used his. Whitaker could definitely be a villain in the boxing game.

 

You said he doesn't have "the greatest of jaws", yes? The (perceived) style change is irrelevant.

 

Great post. Your right.

 

Outbox the **** out of them

 

Wait...what?? Dude, I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying he did have a great jaw? Because I'm saying that issue (not a fragile jaw, just not a very good one) is very relevant with a more infighting change of style. What Whitaker was wondrous at was throwing angles at his opponent everytime they would get set. He turned Chavez into a knot in their fight and thus, we had a dull fight. This style would not have been taught in the '40s. If this style was employed back in the day, said fighter would be placed way down on the undercard by any promoter that might employ his services. And there weren't too many that would. Promoters back then, like the fighters, had to entertain. The live audience was their only source of bread and butter. I'm not picking on Pernell. The same could be said for an Ali if he started out back then. Trainers and promoters alike would be saying, 'Kid, if you don't learn to body-punch or mix it you ain't goin' anywhere.' In a fantasy matchup I would pick Whitaker to do well, but not placed with the rank and file back in the '40s with a below average jaw and no punch.

 

We'll go again and use your more recent comment above, which i have bolded.

I was hoping you would expand on your claim, now claims, per Whitaker having a below average jaw/not the greatest of jaws. Nothing more, nothing less. I fully understand what you are saying per (possible) style changes et al.

I simply want to know why you rate Whitakers jaw below average. You've said it twice and i've always thought Whitakers jaw was in fact quite solid to say the least. Granted he didn't get tagged a lot but his resume is sensational and he fought a lot of big hitters including some at weights above the one he was peak at.

Also you obviously rate quite a few chins ahead of Whitaker's from the era you are speaking off?

 

Oh, now I see what your saying. Dude, pardon my ignorance. I just didn't know what you were asking. I always felt Whitaker had a less than stellar jaw. He was down 10 times in his career that I am aware of. And that was with his shifty, rolling, angle-pivoting style. Now, place him in a more flat-footed, stationary position where he would have to infight far more than he did in his own career and I believe his lack of resiliency in the jaw department and lack of pop would have him suffering a helluva lot more. He just wouldn't be able to hold these guys off. I think fighters back then would see this and would probably attempt to steamroll him. Great boxers back then could not stay on their bike for 15 rounds. It was just unheard of and they would have been booed off the stage. I can think offhand of fighters like Benny leonard, Ken Overlin, Tommy Loughran, Joey Maxim and even more contemporarily, Ken Buchanan. All beautiful boxers who were forced to dig in close when needed to make a career of it. But they all had something that Whitaker lacked. Great jaws.

 

Tell me about it. They act like if they say a fighter from before there was fight footage was better than somebody who has tons of fight footage it will make them seem like they know boxing more.

 

Agreed.

There's footage of some fighters from back in the day where that fighter looks TERRIBLE in every new video of them, and it's just plain bias when they say a modern fighter wouldn't have a chance against them.

 

All good.

I can't remember him down 10 times tho? I can barely remember him down at all, tho i'd have to review his career a bit it's been a long time. I always thought his durability seemed excellent but could be wrong.

I have to say tho i think you might be selling him a bit short style wise. IMO he wasn't one to stay on his bike much at all, he spent substancial periods in the pocket and his workrate was always high. Many do not realise just how much he got done in there. The way he could slip and counter in the pocket was truly something to behold.

He might not need to change his style much at all. He engaged quite a bit but it always seemed less because he was just so brilliant defensively even tho he might be right in front of his opponent.

His workrate was immense comparative to other defensive wizards and cuties.

 

John, I would definitely agree with you on Whitaker's defensive abilities. In fact, he is in my top five along with Pep, a young Ali, Loche and Herol Graham as the best defensive fighters I've seen. To me though - and this could be just about taste - there was something missing excitement-wise. And that's really where I was going with everything. I just can't see that style doing anything - crowd appeal-wise - for him in the '40s. It's strange, because I really loved Albert Davila and Willie Pep's in the pocket fighting. To me, they were exciting. So it must be taste. As for how many times he was down I've got him down against Rafael Williams, Alfredo layne, Roger Mayweather, Buddy McGirt, Wilfredo Rivera, Julio Cesar Vasquez, Dio Hurtado (twice), Andre Pestraiv and Felix Trinidad. I can't remember if there is any more.

 

I'm picking up what you're putting down. I'd probably rate his chin higher than yourself tho, but he really didn't get tagged hard very often. I'm pretty certain against Layne he slipped and it was called as such. The McGirt KD was legit but not much. A punch grazed the back of his head and he wasn't dazed at all, coming straight back with a couple of solid lefts. A few of the others were when he was over the hill. Mayweather had him in serious trouble but it was very early in his pro career.

Pity some of the older posters that were big fans of Whitaker are gone, they had some seriously deep knowledge on him.

Great thread, certainly thought provoking.