How would Sonny Liston have done in Big George's main fights?

No one beats hypothetical Young. Except prime Ingo. Hammer of the Gods!

 

So that means that you think Young and Machen are NOTHING ALIKE? okay that's just ****ing dumb. Machen was a better puncher, threw better combos, beat better oppositon, etc. He was ON THE SAME CLASS. Machen beat Williams, Jones, Quarry(!),Bethea, and Folley so he arguably is on the same level as Young. They are the same stylistically anyway!

Hmm what a coincidence. both having shaky chins. Also THAT version of Foreman was absolute ****. He had none of his ferocity. The prime version of Foreman would arguably Smash young. That version had no finishing ability and no aggression.

Then that's saying something isn't it! Ali was ****ing terrible against Young and if you can't see that I don't know what to say.

So you're treating a draw a victory, a draw that isn't even on film? what kind of **** is that?

You're ****ing insane if you think Foreman was prime. He had just suffered a humiliating defeat against Ali and was struggling against Lyle, plus he had NONE of his aggression of his former self! if you cant see that i dont know what to say. And as for Liston the same applies. he lost his motivation. just compare the films of his prime and the ali films

LMAO
Ok so
Ali: fat, past prime and agruably not a win
Foreman: mentally not himself, no agression, no combos no NOTHING.
Lyle: good win
Shavers:not even a win
norton: loss

So you think Young>Liston?? WOW! That's LAUGHABLE. really that is one of the most cringe worthy **** opinions i have ever heard on this board and everyone knows I am a huge Young fan! Also you are scrapping alot of Liston's wins!

Liston:
Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Johnson, Wepner, Valdes, and Clark. That resume>Young's any day, since these guys are actually IN THEIR PRIME.

 

Am I correct in assuming you're a young teenage boy?

I'm saying I don't put machen anywhere near young's class.

Frazier does not have a shaky chin.

No I said I treat it a draw.

I don't buy the excuse. If he under/overtrained it's his own fault and I aint giving him a pass.

I said young has a better top heavy resume than liston. Which he clearly does because liston has no victories that compare with ali and foreman.

I don't think young>liston at all. I do, however, think foreman>>>liston.

I don't care who you're a fan of, it really has no bearing on the matter kid.

 

Strongly Disagree

 

:deal

True.

God Bless Joe he wouldnt have beaten a prime Sonny Liston.

I believe prime vs prime Liston was better than Foreman. He hit just as hard but was a better boxer and had better stamina was smarter in the ring. Foreman could be viewe as greater because of his second career. That is hard to guage because he was a different fighter and a different man. Hard to measure.

 

I really don't see liston being a better fighter than george (forget greatness i'm talking about the utilisation of one's skillset to win fights)

For me the speed is about equal. Foreman has a clear edge in power and, imo, strength. His workrate is much higher and his chin is much more solid.

When the going got tough george kept throwing and trying to knock his opponent out, liston quit on his stool.

Foreman kept his power later as well demonstrated by the ko of moorer.

Textbook wise liston did everything right with brutal efficiency but the foreman the mowed down frazier, garcia and norton is one of the most offensively gifted heavyweights in history imo, second only to joe louis.

 

1973 Joe Frazier- KO6 or less. very bad style match up for Joe. Sonny's long reach and power would be a nightmare for Joe who was a slow starter anyway. Cant see him start smokin in this fight. I also remember hearing a young Frazier ducked an old Liston...Idk if thats verifiable though.

1974 Ken Norton- KO 5 Norton was rather chinny and Sonny would test that chin and again keep him off with big left jabs

1974 Muhammad Ali- UD Honestly I see Liston of 59' taking this one if he kept his head and stuck to a game plan, and not get frusterated with any of Ali's tactics. Ali's legs were gone to the point where he couldnt bounce around and dance circles around Sonny in the ring. This Ali was very hittable

1976 Ron Lyle- KO8 this is an interesting match up, it could happen either in the ring or the prison yard. Either way i'd favor liston

1991 Evander Holyfield- L UD 12 Holyfield was young,game and could take a shot as long as he doesent get suckered into a brawl with Sonny and finds away to dart in and out of range effectively (like he did foreman) I can see him coasting to a UD victory

1993 Tommy Morrison-KO5 Tommy is chinny and if he trys to bang with Liston he's going to be carried out of the ring, if he tries to box like he did with foreman again I see that long jab smashing into his face over and over. Sonny could box as well as slug

1997 Shannon Briggs-KO4 briggs isnt the same caliber fighter as Sonny

Overall I'd say Liston has better skills than foreman, Foreman hits harder but Sonny could slug with the best of them and is more accurate. Foreman was just so crazy strong and the fact that he came back in the 90's to regain the heavyweight championship is amazing. I'd say Foreman is held in higher regard than Sonny but not because of all around skills but his monster power, devastating KO's and the fact that he regained the championship at 45. Those are the things that made him great. Liston didnt quite have the resume of Foreman he cleaned out the division until he met cassius clay. After the shady rematch he still was knocking people out left and right and we truly dont know how old he was at that point. I dont think Sonny gets the credit he truly deserves and I believe he would defeat foreman. Although Foreman was green during the sparring sessions with Liston he has stated "Sonny was the only fighter to back me up" I think Sonny brings more to the table but in a fight between those too anything could happen I do favor Liston because of his boxing skills, he had good power, Solid chin, huge reach and an atg jab. I guess Sonny was the better all around fighter

 

Liston stops Frazier in 2. Much the same fashion as Foreman did.

Ditto with Norton.

Prime Liston vs. Past it Ali... wow. I think Liston wins at least one in a trilogy, but Ali would find a way to tough out two decision wins.

Liston outboxes and stops Lyle within 8 or 9 rounds.

Even a shot Liston would find a way to tag Morrison and scramble his circuits. KO 6.

Liston catches Moorer and stops him... could happen any time, just like Foreman did. A shot Liston was still a better-skilled fighter than old Foreman.

Briggs would be tough... but Sonny could out-point him over 12 rounds.

'91 Holyfield would win in a war, close but unanimous decision.

Liston had everything Foreman did... and I'll go out on a huge limb and say that he even had more power... and was a more sound fighter to boot.

 

Hmm, neither were champ, both had defensive capabilities, but machen had more power and threw better combos.

he did though. Bonavena shook him badly, Ali stunned him on numerous occasions, foreman treated him like a basketball, machen even stunned him.

Doesn't matter what you have to say though. Ali ****ed with him mentally and he was never the same mentally until the 90s. If you can't see that I don't know what to say.

going off of names? sure, Young beat better names. however if you go off of facts you'll notice Ali was ****ing fat and undertrained and that Foreman was dehydrated and nowhere near his prime self. look outside the ****ing box. the Patterson, Williams, Folley, and Machen Liston beat>>> Anyone Young beat, period.

which is much more reasonable

don't talk down to me either you ****

 

Young beat the man who was the best hw in the world. Machen never came close.

If you think frazier was chinny I don't know what to say to you.

Well I can't see that so I guess you've nothing to say.

Straight up, liston never beat anyone as good as ali nor foreman.

Language like that will get you nowhere in a debate son.

 

Machen was ducked out of a title shot in late 50s against patterson

Foreman of 77 was nowhere near the foreman of the early 70s

 

Yeah but floyd fought the man who sparked him straight after.

The foreman of 77 was better than anyone liston beat imo. Physically foreman was still just as great as ever, if he didn't train properly it's his own fault and I aint giving him a pass for it.

 

Ahh so those 5 title defenses against some **** bums, he couldn't fit the # 1 rated Machen in there?

 

Physically he was not just as great as ever, its evident