How would the Rope-a-dope have worked w/ Sonny Liston?

I think a more realistic way to ask the question is how would the Ali of Zaire in 1974 have done against the Liston of 1964. What style would he have chosen to use? Physically he was nowhere near the fighter in 1974 as he was in 1964. He couldn't have danced against Liston like he did in 1964. Would he have "chosen" to lean against the ropes and be pummeled by Liston? Maybe, if the fight was far enough along that Ali judged it would tire Sonny out (as was the case against Big Geroge). Would Liston have been more thoughtful than George and used his energies better? I think the ultimate answer lies in Ali's head. He danced against Liston because that was the way to win in '64. He rested against the ropes against Foreman because that was the way to win in '74. We can't guess how the 1974 Ali would have chosen to fight Liston. All we know is that he was crafty and adaptable, and he would have fought in a way that would give him the best chance to win. A common factor in '64 and '74 fights is that both Liston and Foreman fell victim to Ali's mind games. Liston was totally frustrated by Ali's dancing by the end of the sixth round and decided he couldn't come out for the seventh. Foreman was totally out-foxed and demoralized by Ali's rope-a-dope so that he tired himself out and left himself open for the kayo. They both were mentally unprepared for what Ali had to offer. The 1974 Ali likely would have found a way to exploit the 1964 Sonny's mental weakness in some fashion, even if it wasn't rope-a-dope. Ali was just mentally tougher than either Foreman or Liston.

 

Not good. Liston would've taken his time, used his jab and uppercut methodically unlike Foreman to pummel Ali. I doubt he knocks Ali out, but he gets a UD (if we're speaking of prime Liston of course, not '64 Liston in which case he does slightly better but inevitably finds himself on the wrong side of a stoppage loss).

 

I don't pretend to know how the 1974 Ali would have fought Liston. I think your question about Liston's stamina would be a key factor in the fight, and I think Ali would use it to his advantage. The closest thing to a 15-round fight that we have to go on with Liston is the Machen 12 rounder in 1960. Machen hardly touched Liston during the fight because he had hurt his right hand in training, and Sonny was still unable to knock him out. Ali's hands were in good shape so he likely would have offered more resistance than Machen and therefore would have been able to slow Liston down more than Eddie. And this is even before we consider that Sonny was four years younger in 1960 than he would be in 1964, which would be another factor which would lead to less stamina. Another telling fact is that, based on prior threads in this forum, the most likely year of Sonny's birth is 1930, which makes the 1964 Liston two years older than the 1974 Ali. Add to all that the fact that Liston fought a total of just six rounds in actual fights between the 1960 Machen fight and his 1964 fight with Ali. So who would you say is likely to be sharper and have more endurance as the fight goes on -- the 1964 Liston or the 1974 Ali?

 

Bill!

 

@Richard M Murrieta Would be very interested in seeing your opinion my man!

 

Specifically the Sonny that faced Ali in Miami Beach? He wasn't in condition to go a hard 6 rounds really. Liston was woefully out of condition. He believed he was going to crush the kid in 2 rounds or less. His weight was a sign that he wasn't the same fighter he was during his ascendancy.
He believed his own hype. Sonny ends up facing what turned out to be the greatest heavyweight we've ever had. Liston didn't exactly have the best luck in his life.

 

A primed sharp Liston would have been able to jab effectively at Ali who wasn't as elusive as he was at age 22. When Ali needed to rest Sonny would have been able to get his power shots off behind his left. Remember Sonny Liston’s lefthook was murderous punch. Had Ali elected the ropes Sonny would have picked his shots smartly.
More patience and precision than Foreman. A more classic boxer and smarter than Young George.

 

I doubt very much if Muhammad would have needed to use the Rope-A-Dope tactic against Sonny. Reason being that Liston was n't nearly as good at cutting off the ring as George Foreman was. That was Ali's reason for adopting that in Zaire.

And....yes.......I see the 1974 Ali beating the '64 Liston. At this point,Muhammad was still considerably faster than Sonny and his mind games - as has been mentioned - would come into play.

 

Thoughtful post @KasimirKid — bravo.

In fantasy matchmaking people often lean way too heavily on the physical and not enough on the mental aspects of the game.

There’s a reason people who know say boxing is 90 percent mental — that only comes into play, of course, when the physical abilities of two fighters are even enough for the mental dimension to matter, and in this case it would.

Bottom line, Ali at a much younger age with far less experience intuitively knew how to take Sonny apart mentally. People seem to forget that Liston, much like Mike Tyson later, often had a huge mental edge in intimidating the opponent. With Ali, it didn’t work and Muhammad worked it against him (same as he did in a different way with George).

I think any (reasonable, not end-of-career vs. prime) version of Ali beats any version of Liston because of this. Stripped of that edge against an equal or near-equal opponent, Sonny wasn’t the same.

 

If Ali never fought Foreman, we would be saying that the rope a dope would not have worked against foreman 'Lying on the ropes and letting a puncher like Foreman pummel you would've worked?? Hell no!' I can just see it