How would you rate these ten fighters P4P

Taken in toto, I disagree.

Lewis was 35 when Rahman got him. Jones was 35 when Tarver got him. Lewis was 36 when he avenged it. Jones avenged nothing, his claim that he was a victor by "not getting knocked out" in Tarver III gives us a glimpse into his career-long psychology. Lennox got caught by a formidable powerhouse in Oliver McCall when he was 29. Who was Jones fighting when he was 29? He got dropped by Del Valle.

Consider context my friend. Jones was fighting mailman and midget testosterone freaks. Lennox's conquests were consistently good. And the Mercer that Lennox faced was the best Mercer there ever was -Jones would have avoided a Mercer counterpart at 175. Count on it.

 

Stoney, what do you think about Hopkins not avenging two losses to Jermain Taylor?

I want to say something about Hopkins. It is amazing that he is still as good as he is at his age, but his wins in the last 3 or 4 years are extraordinary wins CONSIDERING HIS AGE, not really per se.

I mean, if Jones was in his prime, is there really any doubt that he would destroy Tarver, outpoint a fat Winky, beat Calzaghe (yes Calzaghe will embarrass and knock Jones out when they fight) and easily outpoint an 170 pound slow at the best of times cement footed Pavlik? In his prime Jones would knock Jermain Taylor out in about 6 rounds tops.

I have no doubt about all of this. That Hopkins has been able to beat some of these guys or hang with them at an old age makes it look super impressive, but it speaks very little about his level as a fighter in his prime COMPARED to Jones. Jones would have trounced Hopkins' competition in the last 4 years were he in his prime.

That he is hanging around now and making a clown of himself makes it easy to forget how good he was, and i think we SHOULD remember, because Jones, in his prime, clowns all the guys above.

 

You obviously never read my post at - 11:20 PM.

 

Agree to disagree then we shall.

Primes aren't measured by age mate, you know that. Lewis obviously had more left when he avenged Rahman than Jones did going into the Tarver rematches/Johnson fights. Roy was finished, Lewis was not.

And since when is McCall a formidable powerhouse? Physically perhaps, mentally he is a 3 year old child devoid of mother's love.

Jones would have avoided a guy who had just lost to a fossilized Holmes, Jesse Ferguson and got comprehensively beat by Evander Holyfield? Sounds just the kind of fighter Jones WOULD face, and dominate.

And yes, Mercer put up a gallant performance but please don't make more of him that what is the case. He is NOT better than a Montell Griffin, nor even a faded version of Virgil Hill for that matter.

 

I've always found Hearns as one of the hardest fighters to rate.

Given that he was never dominant at any weight other than 154 where he had 3 fights I believe, was knocked out in his prime by Leonard and never avenged it (i don't consider the rematch avenging the loss as Ray was clearly furhter past his best), by Hagler and never avenged it, and by Barkley and although he tried, he failed to avenge that loss as well (he was past his best fot the rematch though).

Duran was significantly smaller than Hearns and past his best days, Benitez as well was post-prime, Cuevas was a murderous puncher but nothing more, The Hill win is fantastic, and he had some excellent showings against Schuler, Roldan, and a nice win over Kinchen and a few others. Tommy did however show tremendous heart in losing efforts unlike Jones, and even though he lost in the end he was outboxing Leonard before he was caught.

I'll move Jones below Chavez now, so he's at #4 with Tommy at #7, and as I said in that original post Hagler and Hearns could be argued for higher placing. Hearns is difficult to rate (knockout losses in prime-none avenged, never really dominant at any weight, but multi-weight success and excellent performances against some top level opponents).

As for Jones using steroids, it's very possible (i'm not sure on the full details of that and whether he used drugs that were still legal at the time or whatever else), but it isn't proven and as of now only a suspicion (though there are some signs to support it), I give Jones credit for moving through divisions and still dominating.

Quite honestly I have nothing else to argue in favor of Jones. I will concede that your arguments have persuaded me to rank Jones and Hopkins much closer now and that there is little seperating them, but not enough for me to have Hopkins higher.

Hopefully Jones pulls off the upset and beats Calzaghe and then he and Hopkins have a rematch and Bernard wins, my perfect scenario for this situation.

 

The rematch hurts him more than both fights to a certain extent. He had the chance to gain revenge and failed. When Hopkins started to fight aggressively during the late rounds of the first fight he hurt Taylor, backed him up, and generally bossed the fight. His cautious approach clearly never worked over the first 7 rounds or so. And when his punches landed cleanly on Taylor down the stretch, alarm bells were ringing.

Hopkins should have upped his punch output during the rematch. I thought he would have picked up from where he left off during the first fight. But he decided to stand at long range, looking for Taylor to force the issue, then counter-punch. And with Taylor not willing to oblige, it became 'cat and mouse' yet again with Taylor winning the rounds mainly on activity rather than accuracy. He never learned his lesson. When you look at his busy hands against Pavlik at the weekend, it makes you wonder. Taylor's style and the whole manner in which he fought Hopkins must be credited. He gave Hopkins an almost mirror image of himself, and obviously B-Hop was taken out of his comfort zone. But Hopkins should have gambled and became the hunter much earlier. He had some success during the late rounds, but again, too late.

Can you imagine Hagler having a rematch with Leonard 5 months after their controversial decision and deciding to stand off over the first 4 rounds...........again.

Holmes learned his lesson against Spinks. Plodding forward behind the jab wasn't enough. Rematch; he comes out smoking with a higher jab output as well as a thundering right hand. He also mixes it too the body and sweeps the first 5 rounds convincingly. I thought Holmes won the fight. Ok, he lost officially, but was far more effective throughout the return.

Leonard's strategy was like 'night and day' for the first and second Duran fights.

Holyfield's strategy against Bowe. First fight he fights like a man obsessed with trench warfare and finds that Bowe is too strong inside and gets pounded. Rematch; lateral movement, double jabs, feints, ocassional bursts, then spinning away. He gets the win.

The Taylor rematch is the biggest 'black mark' on Hopkins' resume.

 

1. Sweet Pea
2. RJJ
3. SRL
4. PBF
5. BHOP
6. JCC
7. MMH
8. Hearns
9. Lenox Lewis
10. Holmes

 

Well said Rob, I agree wholeheartedly. For as good a tactician as Hopkins usually is, he made a glaring error there.

The Jermain Taylor fights in a way reinforce my scepticism about Hopkins beating Jones in a prime for prime match up (not saying Hopkins was prime for Jermain of course).

Hopkins basically became intimidated by Taylor's speed, and chanced his arm when it was too late. Can easily see the same thing happening against a prime Roy.

 

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The robbery claims really pissed me off. I thought he lost the first Taylor fight, 115-113.

 

I had him down by a point in the first fight my self. The only people robbed that night were the fans.

 

1) Leonard
2) Pea
3) Chavez
4) Hopkins
5) Hearns
6) Mayweather
7) Jones
8) Hagler
9) Lennox
10) Holmes

 

Exactly the way I scored it.

In fact, I thought both fights were either draws or close wins for Taylor.

And I agree that Hops' failure to adjust is somewhat of a black eye on his legacy.

 

This is too hard as I cant separate some fighters so Im going to have to go with the old tier system, sorry, here goes.....

Tier 1 - Leonard, Chavez, Whitaker,
Tier 2 - Mayweather, Hopkins, Hagler, Jones, Hearns, Holmes,
Tier 3 - Lewis,

Ps. Even tho it would be very hard to pick a winner between Holmes & Lewis H2H & both make my top 10 HWT list, I placed him on a higher tier because he is naturally a lot smaller & IMO deserves the greater HWT ranking.

Sorry I couldnt separate the tier 2 guys a bit more but a difficult thread = a good thread I suppose.

:thumbsup

 

It was disappointing that he lost in the first place to be perfectly frank. And it does some damage.

I don't believe that he would destroy Tarver. Tarver's power, awkward southpaw style, height and reach would have, I believe, always cause problems. Jones believes it as well and said it. Wright didn't look good against Hopkins, tis true. I'd give you that prime Jones would have made an easy time of him. Calzaghe? Jones himself is fighting Calzaghe for one reason -regret for not fighting him before.

I'm not convinced that Jones would have fought anyone who he feared, and that question has to be asked first with this particular champion.

Ah, but you forget that "longevity" and "ability to compete past one's prime" is indeed a measure of greatness. And Hopkins isn't done yet...

Jones cannot be counted on to fight all the guys above, never mind clown them.

Jones has said as much and I think it's clear that he is seeking to salvage his career -he's looking for redemption. I think that "Ebenezer" Jones had a visit from 3 ghosts recently for being so miserly with his challenges during his prime years. They probably looked like Gans, Langford, and Burley...

 

1)Leonard
2)Holmes
3)Hagler
4)Jones
5)Mayweather
6)Hopkins
7)Lewis
8 Hearns
9)Whitaker
10)Chavez