One that I'm sure Mantequilla and RB will be all over. So was Howard great? Where does he rank amongst other featherweights? Where does he rank amongst British fighters? Would he have been succesful in other featherweight eras without a great like Vicente Saldivar to contend with? I'm interested in particular in how others see Howard doing against the likes of Salvador Sanchez, Eusebio Pedroza, Azumah Nelson, Manny Pacquiao, Erik Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Naseem Hamed and Juan Manual Marquez. If you have any views whatsoever about Winstone, I want to hear them.
No one is more qualified to spill it here than you mate, so i'm glad you obliged.:good That's a massive call RB, but I know you don't make it lightly. I'll put up a list of 15 Europeans that I consider the best and tell me who you place Winstone above: 1. Jimmy Wilde 2. Jim Driscoll 3. Bob Fitzsimmons 4. Duilio Loi 5. Ted Kid Lewis 6. Owen Moran 7. Ken Buchanan 8. Nino Benvenuti 9. Jackie Kid Berg 10. Freddie Welsh 11. Marcel Cerdan 12. Lennox Lewis 13. Benny Lynch 14. Georges Carpentier 15. Battling Nelson Also, whilst you're at it, could you assess Howard Winstone for me in comparison to Ken Buchanan? Do you consider Winstone a greater fighter than Ken? If not a greater fighter, a better boxer? From the limited footage I've seen of Winstone, he strikes me as having quite a few similarities to Ken, maybe a bit more fluid, but I'm not sure Winstone shares Ken's mettle and resilience, which were Ken's trump cards in quite a few fights he had. Perhaps I'm being unfair to Winstone there, because I've only seen some of the tail end of his career, and perhaps in his absolute prime he was a harder nut than I'm giving him credit for being. Nice breakdown. It's definitely saying something if you favour him to win all those fights. I'll reserve judgement from making a call on those fights, but I'd agree with you that he likely faces his toughest challenge from Azumah Nelson. In terms of pure boxers, where does he rate for you? When you say one of the best do you really think he is up there with the Peps, Rosses, Leonards, Driscolls etc?
I can't add much more than what Raging bull already said really. Not many featherweights would have outboxed Winstone.He's definitely among the best technicians in the history of the division, with only a lack of real power keeping from being one of the bona-fide all-timers there. he wasn't inhumanly tough like a Ken Buchanan, which would make his lack of power an issue against the elite aggressive featherweights-over fifteen rounds at least.Not being a defensive specialist(though it was very good anyway),he would have really benefited more punching power, without having the need to change up his offensive style to make the most of it. I'd pick him over all of those fighters, except perhaps Nelson and Pedroza.Those two are pick 'em fights for the reasons Bull stated. Morales and Marquez would fare the worst IMO.Neither can really punch on the move effectively and would be off-balance all fight trying to get set for the counter.Morales appalling defence and lack of reflexes could see him get completely shut out on the cards. Manny would have a decent chance of surprising him early with his speed.He's the best bet for an upset KO, but i would think he loses decisively far more often than not; just not enough variety offensively.
I wonder what would have become of Winstone if he hadn't injured his right hand when he was a kid. He would have had much more power in his right hand with the tips of his fingers intact. Anyone willing to offer the opinion that it would have made the difference in the Saldivar fights? An "if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle" type of thought, but a fascinating thing to ponder in any case.....
After having the pleasure of watching the second Winstone-Saldivar fight, I'll have to concede that Howard is much tougher than I was crediting him for being. He took an absolute battering in the last third of the fight and still kept firing back all the way to the 15th, after looking all but out on several occasions and having no legs underneath himself. That certainly was a different Winstone in there to the one that fought the third fight with Saldivar, and the one that got routed by Legra. Though even in those two contests he showed toughness, especially in the Legra fight, trudging along with his eye completely shut and taking big shots that he could not see. Back to the second Saldivar fight: I'll just say that that was a fantastic performance by both men, and a really entertaining fight. Winstone showed some real good boxing skills in the first two thirds of the fight, keeping the jab in Saldivar's face all the while, and Saldivar showed what a great champion he is finding another gear and wrenching the fight from Howard's hands in a powerhouse display. The fight was pretty close after 8 or 9 rounds, but once Saldivar built some momentum he was a runaway train. My scorecard for the second fight, btw, looks like this: 145-138 Saldivar Winstone taking rounds 1,2,5,7 and 8. Saldivar taking rounds 3,4,6,9,10,11,12,13,14( 10-7 ) and 15. The third round was rather close and could have gone the other way, and the 11th was bordering on a 10-8 round for Saldivar given the punishment Winstone took and how he almost sat on the ropes after a Saldivar barrage. Having seen some of the best of Winstone now, I'd have to say that I agree that he would beat the likes of Marquez, Barrera and Morales, and barring an unlikely shot right on the money from Hamed and Pacquiao, he should get the better of them two. I think he'd struggle against Nelson though and Sanchez and Pedroza would be iffy bouts as well. I know Sanchez showed some struggles against Pat Cowdell, and how he could be outboxed by a sprightly fighter that has good movement, but I think he has the tools to break down Winstone downstairs, and I think it could go down to the wire in that one. Pedroza has boxing skills to compete with Winstone, especially over the distance given his great stamina. I'd expect Winstone to get the best of the first half and Pedroza the best of the second half in that one. Nelson I think has the ability to really pressure Winstone and has the power to probably stop Winstone, but Howard would make him look real bad in quite a few patches along the way. One fighter I would have loved to match Winstone up against is Johnny Famechon. I'm not sure how that bout goes. I think Winstone has the slightly better skills, but Famechon has great stamina and is quite handy on the inside too, and he should hold the advantages down the stretch. Would be a bout for the real purists. Might have to go for the Melbourne boy to edge that one. Biased pick perhaps. :good
