Hurdles for Wilder to overcome and the case for Helenius

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by ShortRound, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. BEATDOWNZ

    BEATDOWNZ Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well said. I like Helenius. Just wish he'd have some killer instinct.
     
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  2. Mitch87

    Mitch87 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He beat Kownacki its not saying much and he lost to Washington recently. That's not impressive in the slightest.
     
  3. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    I don't know Mitch. Kownacki beat Arreola, who 21 months later put AJ-conqueror Ruiz on the deck, hurt him multiple times and took him the full 12 rounds at 40. Kownacki beat a version of Martin who came to win, who was the titlist AJ dethroned for his first belt. Washington had beaten Forrest, Chambers and Helenius and Kownacki steamrolled him, Szpilka had beaten Adamek and a fresher version of Wach than the one who gave Whyte war over 10 and Kownacki steamrolled him too. So knocking out this 20-0 contender who had a win over a titlist and three title challengers, in his backyard, as a massive underdog, and then repeating the same feat in the rematch but in even more dominant fashion 19 months later, says quite a bit about Helenius's return to form.

    If Helenius lost to Washington recently then AJ lost to Ruiz recently. You can't have it both ways. And Ruiz's "resume" prior to demolishing the bodybuilder in the most humiliating defeat in boxing history was arguably worse than Washington's.
     
  4. Mitch87

    Mitch87 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Arreola gave Kownacki a close fight. Arreola only won two rounds against Ruiz.

    I thought Martin fight should have been a draw, had in been 12 rounds Kownacki would of lost as he was gassed and Martin was coming on strong late.

    Ruiz proved his level by beating the World number 1, unified champion who had the best record in the divison.

    Helenius best wins is against completly spent versions of Brewster and Liakhovich (chisora would easily be his best win but I'm not counting that, got gift decision and Chisora was robbed).

    One is proven at top level the other isn't.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  5. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What was the point of this? Everyone knows that I once supported Wilder, until be became a total shameful fraud. I think the turning point was when they booked him to fight that middleweight bum.

    As for the Duhapas quote, he did pretty well, didn't he?

    Am I supposed to run in fear because you have pointed out that I can see and state objective truth?
     
  6. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well no, not huge credit. I would give him some credit, but Helenius is not a huge credit guy. But its not going to happen anyway, so...
     
  7. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    Arreola won 3 rounds on average on the scorecards against Kownacki and for those who think that was a well past prime Arreola, that was an active 2 win streak 38 year old Arreola, not the 21 month inactive, 40 year old Arreola coming off a loss who had Ruiz on the deck and pushed him over 12.

    "had in been 12 rounds"

    The problem with this is that fighters pace themselves and fight a certain way based on the number of rounds they're actually fighting, not on some hypothetical number. Another problem is it's totally hypothetical as Martin also had problems in the later rounds, it's no given that he would have swept the last two, put Kownacki down or stopped him.

    "Ruiz proved his level by beating the World number 1"

    Or alternatively, Ruiz badly exposed Joshua's deficiencies in the brain, chin, heart, engine, backfoot and inside departments. Ruiz is not a bad fighter at all but he's the most limited heavyweight of any note as he's very short and stubby, has cement feet and isn't a big puncher.

    "Helenius best wins is against completly spent versions of Brewster and Liakhovich"

    No chance. Brewster was coming off a loss to Gbenga Oluokun, he was domestic level when he fought Helenius. Liakhovich still had something left but his performances against Briggs and Valuev several years prior left a lot to be desired, Helenius was heavily favoured in these fights. Kownacki had far better wins of late, was undefeated, was coming to win with total confidence in the 1st fight, was in his backyard and was a wide favourite in both, especially the first. Hence the Kownacki wins are the best wins of his career.

    The Chisora win was very controversial but Helenius was struggling with injuries around that time that plagued his career for years after and Chisora couldn't stop "the Finnish David Price" (your words) over 12 rounds, getting hit plenty in the process. If Helenius is as bad as you claim then Chisora did not cover himself in glory that night and Helenius's size and punching power typically make him a greater KO threat against better opponents.
     
  8. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    "Everyone knows that I once supported Wilder"

    Which year? You hated him back in 2015 and listed some of your reasons as him beating up a hooker, wanting a body on his record and dissing Mike Tyson, who of course never assaulted any hookers, never wanted a body on his record and was totally respectful at all times.

    "As for the Duhapas quote, he did pretty well, didn't he?"

    His stock did go up and he tried his best but he lost virtually every round, was outlanded more than 3:1 and was stopped for the first time in 35 fights. Pretty different result from the one you predicted.

    "Am I supposed to run in fear"

    I don't see why. The point of the quotes is to show you've been badly wrong about Wilder before and give him minimal credit even when he greatly surpasses your expectations as you make clear in predictions. Wilder has beaten at least three fighters you said he would probably lose to, regardless of any excuses. If the Helenius fight goes ahead (which you claim Wilder will duck) and Wilder wins, it will be at least four, and Helenius is a legitimate contender in your view as of one day ago, who Wilder would be fighting coming off brutal back to back defeats.
     
  9. Jacques81

    Jacques81 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Wilder is damaged goods.

    Even old Helenius might take him out at this point.

    He had back to back absolute thrashings
     
  10. ad4m88

    ad4m88 Member Full Member

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    Lol arreola was one vitalis best opponent heard it all now he spanked him that hard he was crying in the ring like a ***** after the beating stiverne is nothing but a American nfl wanna be hype job just like the rest of them

    Oritz has beaten no one to even be seen as a contender if he wasn't Cuban he'd be fighting in gyms plus dude was about 60
     
  11. Mitch87

    Mitch87 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How can Ruiz be "exposing" , AJ has already proved himself by beating the majority of top HWs in divison (at the time AJ had beaten more top 10 oppents than Fury and Wilder combined).

    Kownacki best wins were against Martin (which was debatable and extremely close) Spzilka (who Chisora didn't break a sweat and KOed in a round) and Washington of all people lol. Its not a great record. Chisora record who you critical of is clearly better (Kownacki also ducked him).
     
  12. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum TKO7 Full Member

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    Whyte has better Stamina and pressure Than Helenius. Washington was more of a stupid misscalculated moment for Helenius.

    Wilder head Hunted Fury but Fury didnt use His weight on him. So he created a vacum for Wilder to use free at His liking and tempo. Helenius cannuse both His weight and punch om Wilder. That Would be the tactic I would use if I was Robert.

    Wilder should be a slight favorite nevertheless.
     
  13. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    Threads have been made on Vitali's best wins and Arreola usually registers close to the top. He pushed Vitali harder than most of his contenders with his mass, durability and determination, even though he was dominated. If you'd never heard of Arreola being widely referred to as one of Vitali's best wins then you're basically living under a rock in boxing terms.

    Seth Mitchell fits the definition of NFL hypejob wannabe, which Arreola basically stated before their fight. Arreola wiped him out in 1 round. Arreola then fought Stiverne in the rematch for the WBC title, who had dropped Arreola and beaten him by a wide margin on the cards in their first fight. Arreola attempted to up the pace on Stiverne and had some early success but Stiverne weathered the storm and his devastating counterpunching wiped Arreola out in 6. Stiverne then lost the WBC title in a near-shut out 12 round points loss to Wilder, who had never gone past 4 rounds in 32 pro fights previously.

    If you have a brain (which is questionable at this point) this should give you an idea of the difference in levels between a hypejob like Mitchell and far superior fighters like Arreola or Stiverne, let alone Wilder.

    Ortiz wiped out Ring's 6th ranked Jennings in 7 rounds, who was 19-1 and coming off a 9-3 decision loss to the lineal king and P4P No.2. That in itself rubbishes your claim. At the time Ortiz wasn't just seen as a viable contender, he was seen by many as the air apparent and the most dangerous challenger for Fury or Wlad. No one in boxing history would have been bending over backwards to fight a big undefeated southpaw power puncher with vast experience and skills.
     
  14. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    Helenius will be a wide underdog but not ultra-fringe, I suspect 5/1 or a bit shorter. He has to hope that Wilder has lost a step (as he may well) to have a decent chance of winning. The most likely outcome is that Wilder dusts him early.
     
  15. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    AJ had done very well considering his vulnerabilities but when we put things in perspective, his best win was 41 year old, 17 months inactive, winless in two years dethroned B-side Wlad in Britain. And it was far from convincing: AJ went life and death, was dropped hard, outboxed for at least half of the fight and needed 5 rounds to get a second wind. Many people believe that if Wlad had really gone for AJ rather than trying to box to a decision, he would have got him out of there. Wlad had not produced a stellar performance in 2.5 years at that point, in addition to all of the other handicaps and even the stoppage late into the 11th was somewhat contentious.

    Everyone else (with the possible exception of 39 year old Povetkin, who had a young man's style) regardless of any "top 10" BS was Chisora level, as was proven when most of AJ's top victims went life and death with Chisora or lost. Even Usyk had a difficult fight with Chisora but one fight later he outboxed AJ comfortably, with many remarking that Chisora had given Usyk more to think about.

    So when we look back with clear eyes, AJ was grossly overhyped and Ruiz played a big part in exposing that. If AJ had been nearly as good as most people were saying he would have never lost to Ruiz. Virtually no one gave that 25-1 no hoper a chance. But he destroyed AJ and made him quit on his first time fighting away from home regardless.

    Kownacki's best wins are Arreola, Martin, Szpilka and Washington, whereas Chisora's are Pulev (on his last legs, SD at home) Takam, Scott and Kevin. Kownacki has 3 losses, Chisora has 12. I don't deny that Chisora is a better fighter overall but the idea that there's a big gap in ability is nonsense. Guys like Whyte, Chisora, Parker and Ruiz can very plausibly lose to a Kownacki or Kabayel on any given night.

    Kownacki is probably controlled by his managers and promoters, I don't think he would have made the decision on whether he would fight Chisora. PBC like to keep things in-house, don't like Hearn in particular and Demirezen had fought a couple of PBC heavyweights already. If Kownacki could have taken the Chisora payday I think he almost certainly would have.