Hurdles for Wilder to overcome and the case for Helenius

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by ShortRound, Aug 10, 2022.

  1. SmackDaBum

    SmackDaBum TKO7 Full Member

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    Yes Helenius is a semi Still standing target. But he has some decent backwards step and lean back defence against Wild looping punches. Problem is Wilder is very fast and rangy with those shots so i Would never use those as Helenius. It works okay ok against smaller opposition though. That could very well be the outcome of this fight.

    But he is bigger Than Wilder so he should go forward trying to taking him out from the start making it closer to a 50/50 fight.
     
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  2. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    Helenius should definitely go for it, even though he's a backfoot fighter primarily. He's got the power to knock Wilder out. If he tries to box on the backfoot his lack of footspeed, defence and stamina will catch up with him, probably sooner rather than later as Wilder will have all the time and space in the world to land.
     
  3. Mitch87

    Mitch87 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    AJ best win is beating an ATG who had only lost one fight in many years. It wasn't like he was outbshape during his period of inactivity, he was in two training camps for fights that cancelled and came in lightest he had done in 7 years. His next best is Povetkin (who had a far superior record to the likes of Wilder who ducked Povetkin) who despite age after the AJnfight hebhad a good fight with Hunter, beat Hughie Fury and KOed one the top 5 HWs in Whyte. AJ also the first of only two people to be the at the undeafted world Champion (Wilder avoided making an attempt to unify) and also beat Whyte went to be a top 5 fighter for large period of time. Add Ruiz and Pulev and 6 opponents that AJ has beaten that better than any opponent Wilder has ever beaten.

    I don't count the Pulev win for Chisora because Pulev was robbed. However beating Takam is far more impressive than anything Kownacki has ever done. Chisora didn't break a sweat to KO spzilka who gave Wilder fits and out boxed in numerous rounds.
     
  4. hobby rider

    hobby rider Active Member Full Member

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    Bear in mind that wilders own management called him a baby and said he wasn’t ready to unify with that very same old Wlad, they then had the cheek to call wilder a world champion.
     
  5. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    Wlad had lost one fight in many years but the fight he lost was his previous fight where he was dethroned at home in a wide points loss and he was without a win in 2 years. He was in his final career fight, which is an uncommon time for fighters to retire if they believe they are at the zenith of their powers. He wasn't out of shape at all but he was ring rusty, having been out for 17 months. It was absolute life and death in Britain, which AJ managed to win by very fine margins. It's far and away AJ's best win and a very good one considering his relative lack of experience at the time.

    Povetkin was coming off getting dropped by David Price and hadn't looked destructive for several fights. He has a very small heavyweight at 6'2 (at most) and 222 lbs, who often went the distance despite being a pressure fighter. His best career win where he was pushed to the limit though not dominated and still prevailed in impressive fashion was Takam. The Whyte win also warrants a mention considering how faded Povetkin looked in that fight before he destroyed Whyte. Takam and Whyte have something in common, which is that they both ducked Luis Ortiz, who would have beaten both of them.

    I've explained to you many times that paper champions like Martin and Parker were interested in unifying with AJ because Hearn offered more money. It only made sense to go for Wilder if you were blocked from AJ, as Ortiz was. Hunter also should have gone down the PBC and WBC route rather than having his career stalled and wasted by Hearn.

    Kownacki's best wins over Arreola, Martin, Szpilka and Washington compare fine with Chisora's over Takam, Scott and Kevin. Chisora got to Szpilka years later when the weak chinned at the best of times fighter had been KO'd and beaten up many times, it's like saying Danny Williams is better than Lewis because Williams destroyed Tyson in 4.

    If I was to make a collective top 5 of AJ and Wilder's best opponents beaten it would look like:

    1. Wlad
    2. Ortiz 1
    3. Povetkin
    4. Ortiz 2
    5. Stiverne 1

    All were punchers, all were highly experienced, all of them came to win. The same cannot be said for the other contenders who lost.

    We also cannot omit the permanent sh*t stain of AJ's loss to Ruiz and in losing to Usyk he became the first SHW champ to be dominated by an ex-sub-HW. These losses damage AJ's standing far more than Wilder's losses and draw against Fury damage his.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
  6. Kiwi Casual

    Kiwi Casual Active Member Full Member

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    Ortiz and Stiverne you rate higher than the likes of Povetkin, Whyte, Parker, Ruiz? What drugs are you on?

    The amount of mental gymnastics you're displaying here is mind blowing. No doubt you'll reply to this using triangle theory and betting odds, but that's not relevant here. Actually look at their achievements.

    I'll also add that AJ avenged his loss to Ruiz, something Wilder has yet to do with Fury. While I doubt AJ will beat Usyk in the rematch it's hardly a stain as Usyk has to be the best boxer currently active until Fury wishes to box him.
     
  7. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    What had Whyte done when AJ beat him? Had he dominated anyone even nearly as good as Arreola?

    Winning a world title is a greater "achievement" than Povetkin and Whyte ever managed.

    Parker is a light puncher and was happy to lose.

    Ruiz had one great performance, other than that he's been mediocre and is going to lose to Ortiz if not Wilder.

    Avenging a loss to a fringe contender like Ruiz and avenging a loss to Fury are not equatable. AJ should not have lost to a fighter like Ruiz and it's a horrible stain on his legacy that can never be expunged.
     
  8. Kiwi Casual

    Kiwi Casual Active Member Full Member

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    By that logic, you should have Parker ranked higher because he was a World Champion when AJ beat him, and far closer to his prime than Stiverne. Ortiz has never been world champion.

    Ruiz was also a unified belt holder too, so going by your logic again should be ranked higher. Something only Wlad, Fury and AJ can also lay claim to.

    Fact is you're just trying to spin narrative into making Wilder look better than he actually is by bolstering mediocre wins, and glorifying his losses while at the same time disparaging AJ for his opposition despite the fact Wilder didn't have the guts to fight them.

    You're a constant contradiction.
     
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  9. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    I'm not the one who first mentioned "achievements" was I? I had non-world champ Povetkin above world champ Stiverne. My criteria included factors like "punching power", "experience" and "did he come to win?" If you look at the big upsets you see a lot of commonalities.

    Stiverne was coming off his two best career performances, he was in his prime. If anything it's Parker who wasn't in his prime; I heard that he "turned a corner" in the last Chisora fight, which was how long and how many fights post-AJ?

    Wilder has fought the lineal king three times now, twice when he was No.1 ranked. In his last 6 fights, Wilder has faced the best comp in the division. Wilder has proven he's a warrior who is willing to die in the ring, whereas AJ has proven he's relatively yellow by quitting against Ruiz.
     
  10. Kiwi Casual

    Kiwi Casual Active Member Full Member

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    You used championship as an example, so I used the same example to expose your bias.

    As for punching power, experience etc. It isn't an achievement. Throwing in the world's strongest man or most experienced boxer who's in his 70s would mean nothing, so why use it as a metric?

    I also said "closer to their prime", not in their prime. Big difference.

    Yes Wilder stepped up in his last three fights against Fury, but to be honest Wilder had no excuse not to fight for the other belts when Fury left them scattered the first time. Instead he opted to fight tin cans and old men while AJ attempted to unify and Fury was knocking back 20 pints a day. it's about consistently fighting better opponents which AJ has done, not Wilder.
     
  11. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    Let's not pretend that you don't have your biases here. You're a Parker fan, which makes you a Joshua, Whyte and Ruiz defender almost by extension as Parker lost to 2/3 of those guys and only won a hometown MD against the other.

    I used world title as an example of superior "achievement" (you mentioned achievement in the first place) but I never thought it mattered that much in this area, which is why I have Povetkin above Stiverne (who you arbitrarily claimed was post-prime despite coming off career best wins and performances, which Povetkin definitely was not and Parker wasn't either).

    The heavyweights who've caused upsets against SHW behemoth champions have tended to have good power, lots of experience and will to win, also good chins, aggression, decent range and a lot of mass. You are just engaging in irrelevant reductio ad absurdum.

    Southpaws are also very dangerous as Holyfield, Vitali and Wlad discovered: Wilder passed his southpaw test against Ortiz twice, whereas AJ failed his against Usyk.

    The reason why Wilder didn't fight pothead Martin and gutless Parker is because they wanted to sell their belts to AJ for MORE MONEY.

    Wilder wasn't "opting" to fight anyone in all likelihood: his opponents were chosen by his management. Even Wlad Klitschko admitted that this happened to him on his title reign and I wouldn't be surprised if he had close to double Wilder's IQ.

    AJ has never fought the No.1 ranked heavyweight in the world, Wilder has twice and Wilder has fought the stronger and more dangerous opposition since 2018. Joshua fought stronger competition than Wilder back in 2017 yes, that's a long time ago now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
  12. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I supported him until he fought Damon Mcreary, and that is when I realized that Wilder was never going to progress, but they were going to manufacture his career. And I was right.

    As for Duhapuas, you, busted up Wilder's eye real good and they did the slightly quick stoppage to get him out of there. He exposed Wilder, as I thought he would.
     
  13. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    So "everyone knew" you supported Wilder up until 2012, despite you not having this account until 2014 and virtually all of your posts about Wilder since then being exclusively negative. Makes sense.

    Wilder was brought along slowly by his overly cautious American management but there were 5 major step ups in his career, from Morales to K. Price to Stiverne to Ortiz to Fury; a gradual but enormous increase in levels.

    1. You didn't predict that Duhaupas would "expose" Wilder by making him look less than impressive, you predicted he'd beat him

    2. As you have stated yourself, Duhaupas was a big, tough, game contender with decent skills, therefore it's not much of a surprise that being hit with 7-13 punches every round for 10 rounds caused Wilder's left eye to swell up. But this didn't expose Wilder in the least as he fought through the mild adversity and won. If he'd gone down and quit as Dubois did then you'd have a case

    3. Duhaupas had been outlanded 35-7 in the previous round and was getting seriously battered at that stage. Wilder showed no sign of slowing down and caught Duhaupas with 16 unanswered punches in the 11th before the referee waved it off with just over 5 minutes to go. The only reason you claim the stoppage was "slightly premature" is because you wanted Duhaupas to go the distance, as Wilder being the first man to stop Duhaupas and the only man to stop him in his prime with decent prep (where Teper, Helenius and Miller failed) is a nice feather in Wilder's cap
     
  14. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, I got locked out of an old account by accident. I forgot about that. I have been around since 2006.

    Anyway, he wasn't "brought along slow." His career was manufactured including fixed fights.

    Duhapuas wa s modestly talented guy who I knew would expose him, and he did.

    I am not really sure what it is you are arguing. Wilder is a fraud, and all but five or six mentally defective toads on here know as much. Nothing is going to chance that, so what exactly are you looking for me to say?
     
  15. ShortRound

    ShortRound Active Member banned Full Member

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    "Duhapuas wa s modestly talented guy who I knew would expose him, and he did."

    Duhaupas "exposed" Wilder by getting battered and stopped for the first time in his 35 fight career and he wasn't nearly good enough to beat Wilder as you predicted he would.

    "and all but five or six mentally defective toads on here know as much"

    It seems you are the mentally defective one: polls on this forum in recent months have favoured Wilder over AJ and Joyce. If anything, people have woken up to the fact that Wilder has been chronically underrated.

    "so what exactly are you looking for me to say?"

    I'm expecting you to keep exposing what a hypocrite you are on this matter, which you continue to do without fail.