HW evolution debate master thread

Why are you categorizing the way I think? What are my preferences?

Maybe it's YOU that has preferences.

That's on YOU. Don't spread your bigotry and intolerance to me. That's what YOU have to deal with. That's between YOU and God.

Don't bring me into that.

You see, Dempsey does things that a normal observer wouldn't notice. In fact, I had to read in order to enhance my knowledge of boxing because simply watching it wasn't enough to necessarily clue me into the intricacies of the sport.

And for the record, Jack Johnson had a tremendous offense too, so did Willy Pep, and other "defensive" fighters.

However, Dempsey was an aggressive fighter, but he maximized his use of "aggressive defense" which is highly underutilized today. That's one of the main areas where boxing is lacking in.

Can you name any fighters that fight like Dempsey today? I don't see any.

 

Come on now, Banks could never become Steward. Manny practically lived in the Kronk for years, working with the likes of: Hearns, McCallum and Lewis etc. Banks could never replicate those experiences.

Regarding a fighters arsenal, yes, of course there'll always be exceptions. But again, when a fighter is clearly repeatedly open for a body shot, you throw a body shot no matter what game plan you went into the fight with.

 

Ali didn't depend on his size, he depended on his speed and his unique skills.

They wouldn't have been equally disadvantaged by size.

Rocky would have been at huge disadvantage due to his size and style.

Ali would have been at a size disadvantage, but he wasn't small at 6'3 with a 78" reach, and his speed and reflexes would have made it hard for the bigger guys to have caught him clean.

Rocky was a small, in your face pressure fighter.

Ali danced on his toes, feinting his opponents in order to make them off balance so he could counter.

Rocky would get hurt against the modern HW's.

On his best day, Ali would have a good chance of beating any HW in history.

Again, the fact that Rocky regularly beat bigger guys, whereas Ali regularly beat smaller guys, was just due to circumstances. It has no relevance whatsoever in looking at which one of them would have faired better against the modern guys.

 

So are you saying that you think HW boxing keeps progressing, but you're not sure if that happens in the lower weight classes?

Regarding Ali, if you want to be objective, you have to look at who exactly Ali struggled with, and where he was in his career at the time.

You also have to note that today's top guys have struggled at times with guys of various sizes, who were nowhere near as good as the best versions of Ali and Holmes.

Personally, I think it's laughable to not have given Ali and Homes a great chance at becoming successful in today's era.

Joseph Parker is a good fighter but he's still unproven.

Joshua looks the goods, but he still has huge question marks around his chin and stamina. Although he's just had a great win against Wlad, he's still unproven to a degree.

Deontay Wilder has looked off balance and uncoordinated, and has struggled with B and C class fighters before his power has saved the day.

Tyson Fury has a unique style, and he had a great win over Wlad. But he hasn't added to it, and he's been troubled by much lesser fighters.

 

Hahah, what the...?!

 

andrewa1,

Of course, but if you're knowledgeable, you can appreciate what you're looking at. You can use logic. A knowledgeable boxing fan knows for sure that Wilfred Benitez was a better fighter than Amir Khan. They know that without having seeing them fight.

If boxing progressed in the same manner as other sports, then the best fighters of today would universally be recognised as the best fighters of all time. And the fact that they clearly aren't speaks volumes.

It's not logical at all. Not in the slightest.

Sprinting and swimming are sports that are racing from point A to point B, against a clock.

They heavily rely on strength and power, as well as modern equipment etc. They rely on it much more than fighters do.

How is a guy sprinting as fast as he can from one point to another on a track, even remotely the same as a fighter trying to box someone standing opposite them in a boxing ring?

It's ridiculous.

Whilst there's a big element of skill and technique involved in sprinting, it doesn't compare to the many skills needed to fight another man.

They are just completely different sports.

 

I love these debates, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone. But in my honest opinion, yes, it's ridiculous to try and draw comparisons between sprinting from one point to another, and fighting in a ring.

The only similarities they have is that they're both professional athletes. Other than that there's nothing.

 

andrewa1,

Again, I know there's been progress in the HW division, but my argument is that there isn't constant progress decade after decade, like there's been in some other sports.

Regarding Vitali, I think he'd have excelled in any era. He doesn't possess a great resume, but in my opinion, that was just due to circumstances with injuries etc. I think he was a much more formidable HW than Wlad, and if he'd have remained injury free and he'd have had another 20 plus fights, I think there'd have been no doubt as to who the best brother was. Being fully fit and fighting to his full capabilities, Vitali would have been a nightmare for any HW in history. I rate him very highly on a H2H basis.

I respect your opinion regarding Tyson and Ali. You've made some good points.

I can't agree with you at all regarding Rocky Marciano.

Again, Ali relied on his skills and his speed.

Ali wouldn't have just had a speed advantage today. He also had great reflexes and unique skills. Although he wasn't huge and powerful, he was still a decent size HW with respectable power.

Rocky would had to have fought everybody and it would have been a war. He couldn't have out boxed any of the modern HW's. He was very small and easy to hit.

Whilst Ali was smaller than the modern HW's, again, he wasn't a small HW. With his size, skills and speed, he could have out manouvered today's guys and out boxed them to a decision win, in a way that Rocky could never have dreamed of doing. Ali could make guys miss and then counter them. He could win rounds based on his footwork and hand speed. Rocky's only realistic chance of winning, would have been via knockout, which wouldn't have been likely. Ali would always have had a better chance of success. Because again, he was bigger, faster, harder to hit, and he had a superior offense with more variation. The HW's of today would have found it hard to have timed him.

I'll look forward to it.

Great debate.

 

Overall the division has vastly improved for the reasons you mentioned

Overall larger physical size and increased strength, Advanced nutrition, advanced training techniques, etc.

 

The average weight of the top 10 contenders according to Boxrec and The Ring magazine:

A small sample size from the decades between 1926 to 2016:

[url]http://imgur.com/a/2BBl2[/url]

Took away the heaviest outlier (Such as Valuev) from every calculated sample/year. So basically it's just the average weight of the top 10 contender minus the heaviest contender.

 

evolution isnt improvement. the thread is flawed.

 

1926
Average: 199.8
Minus outlier: 198.1

1936
Average: 198.9
Minus outlier: 194.3

1946
Average: 194.2
Minus outlier: 191.8

1956
Average: 194.8
Minus outlier: 192.7

1966
Average: 200.8
Minus outlier: 199.2

1976
Average: 216.4
Minus Outlier: 214.8

1986
Average: 226.6
Minus outlier: 224.7

1996
Average: 231.1
Minus outlier: 229.3

2006
Average: 250.6
Minus outlier: 242.4

2016
Average: 242.9
Minus outlier: 241.8